Being boiled alive is less painful than effectively being shot in the head?
Are we in the Bizarro world now?
I've been to slaughterhouses where that's not the practice. Some Jews and Muslims don't eat meat unless the cow has had their throat sliced to kill them.
And there are BIG slaughter houses dedicated to feeding that demand.
Ummm I read the portions you posted and it seemed to lack logical conclusions... And my question is specifically based on the following statements
Lobsters do not, on the other hand, appear to have the equipment for making or absorbing natural opioids like endorphins and enkephalins, which are what more advanced nervous systems use to try to handle intense pain. From this fact, though, one could conclude either that lobsters are maybe even more vulnerable to pain, since they lack mammalian nervous systems’ built-in analgesia, or, instead, that the absence of natural opioids implies an absence of the really intense pain-sensations that natural opioids are designed to mitigate. I for one can detect a marked upswing in mood as I contemplate this latter possibility: It could be that their lack of endorphin/enkephalin hardware means that lobsters’ raw subjective experience of pain is so radically different from mammals’ that it may not even deserve the term pain.
And
Lobsters, however, are known to exhibit preferences. Experiments have shown that they can detect changes of only a degree or two in water temperature; one reason for their complex migratory cycles (which can often cover 100-plus miles a year) is to pursue the temperatures they like best.
Therefore could, instead of feeling pain that would be considered creul, the lobsters could be just rapidly pursuing a temperature that they perfer. An instinctual response rather than a response from suffering. In order for it to be cruel there needs to be suffering. The above quote suggests that it is possible that they do not experience what we would describe as pain
Still, after all the abstract intellection, there remain the facts of the frantically clanking lid, the pathetic clinging to the edge of the pot. Standing at the stove, it is hard to deny in any meaningful way that this is a living creature experiencing pain and wishing to avoid/escape the painful experience. To my lay mind, the lobster’s behavior in the kettle appears to be the expression of a preference
Then the author assigns human characteristics of showing preference and assigns the flicking as a sign of pain. Is a sunflower showing a preference when it turns to follow the sun and because it decides to escape darkness does tat mean we can say sunflowers are afraid of the dark? Now if their is something else in the linked essay that you didnt post let me know and i will have a read.
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"However stuporous the lobster is from the trip home, for instance, it tends to come alarmingly to life when placed in boiling water. If you’re tilting it from a container into the steaming kettle, the lobster will sometimes try to cling to the container’s sides or even to hook its claws over the kettle’s rim like a person trying to keep from going over the edge of a roof. And worse is when the lobster’s fully immersed. Even if you cover the kettle and turn away, you can usually hear the cover rattling and clanking as the lobster tries to push it off. Or the creature’s claws scraping the sides of the kettle as it thrashes around. The lobster, in other words, behaves very much as you or I would behave if we were plunged into boiling water (with the obvious exception of screaming).15 A blunter way to say this is that the lobster acts as if it’s in terrible pain, causing some cooks to leave the kitchen altogether and to take one of those little lightweight plastic oven timers with them into another room and wait until the whole process is over.
I always found as a kid the idea of going to a restaurant, pointing at a lobster and it being killed a touch frightening.
In a way, one could argue that reading that essay, thinking about the implications of killing and eating lobster, and then going ahead and doing it, could be one of the more ethical, respectful, and intimate meat-eating practices that one could participate in.
If huge industrial-scaled meat producing practices are unethical, and one should show respect and compassion for the animals that one consumes, I don't think there's anything more noble than reading that essay, understanding and considering deeply all the complex questions that Wallace raises, and still going ahead to kill and eat a lobster.
I don't know what I'm really trying to say. Meat is tasty.
Last edited by malcolmk14; 01-18-2013 at 11:37 PM.
I'd love to invite people to watch a really fascinating video called Lynn and Harriet.
It's about a woman (Lynn) who purchased a pig and raised it as a pet for a long time; she became very attached to Harriet and it was like another family member to her.
In the end, does she eat Harriet like she originally planned to?
"I was sad, and the first time I was going to eat her I thought, oh I don't know."
"When I got the meat on the plate, cooked, it wasn't Harriet, it was just my dinner. It didn't feel bad at all."
"Before I actually did it, I wasn't sure if my moral belief about raising an animal well and eating it would be able to translate into actual practicality, but it did, and I'm proud of it."
When ever I make lobster, I always wash it first and then put it in the freezer for about 15 to 20 minutes. It's supposed to numb the lobster.
Then I kill it like this.
***WARNING***
May not be for the faint at heart. This supposed to be the most humane way. I've made lobster this way, and also boiling it live. I can't tell the difference. Seemed to cook the same both ways.
Spoiler!
I then proceed to boil it, adding whatever spices (normally just some salt) and then enjoying with melted warm butter.
When ever I make lobster, I always wash it first and then put it in the freezer for about 15 to 20 minutes. It's supposed to numb the lobster.
Then I kill it like this.
***WARNING***
May not be for the faint at heart. This supposed to be the most humane way. I've made lobster this way, and also boiling it live. I can't tell the difference. Seemed to cook the same both ways.
Spoiler!
I then proceed to boil it, adding whatever spices (normally just some salt) and then enjoying with melted warm butter.
turn up the sound for the last 5 seconds of the video. you will hear satan's voice.
What if I get enjoyment out of kicking my dog? Your enjoyment is the taste of meat, my enjoyment is seeing the dog yelp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate
Do you people kick your dogs? If not, why not? Do you have any problems with me kicking mine?
What are you talking about? What is this completely useless and ridiculous comparison? Eating meat is the same as kicking dogs for fun? Really?
Is kicking something necessary for human survival nowadays? If so, I recommend you kick a tree, or better yet,
There have been recent studies that plants may also feel pain and might even 'scream' or single others to to their plight
I call malarky on those studies. But let's say for arguments sake that I grant you that plants feel pain. And let's say that I go completely crazy and say that they feel pain the same excruciating way that a creature with a complicated nervous system like a mammal does.
If our ethics claim that we should cause the least amount of suffering, then we should still be vegetarians. Cows eat piles and piles of corn, that if eaten directly by humans could feed many more people. Less corn would need to "suffer" to provide our sustenance if we ate it directly rather than giving it to cows.
I used to think that "Carrot Juice is Murder" by the Arrogant Worms was promoting this idea that plants feel pain... but the more I listen to it, the more asinine and humourous the idea is.
The oddest thing is that I've seen a few of these people that claim that plants feel pain ACTUALLY MOWING THEIR LAWNS!!! What kind of sadists are these people?!?! That's millions of cuts to those poor, poor suffering living organisms. How can one be so cruel?
That's a very well thought out response. I appreciate the effort that you put into rebutting my point. I congratulate you on the brilliancy of this counter-point.
Ad-hominum attacks on the internet really, really don't hurt me all that much.
