Merry Christmas? Not according to this man in Saskatoon

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

*bangs head against wall*

How many times do I have to say this isn't about one individual saying "Merry Christmas" to another? If Bob says "Merry Christmas" to Mohammed, Mohammed can rightly brush off the fact that Bob is using a Christian greeting because Bob is (a) wishing him well and (b) probably is giving that greeting out of habit of what he has grown up with. Now, if Bob is a known bible-thumping zealot who actually goes out of his way to push his religion, or a xenophobe that would like to see these immigrants go back to the country they came from then maybe he does say "Merry Christmas" for nefarious reasons, but 99.9% of the time it's just a habitual thing. On an individual basis, most people are reasonable and will welcome that the person is wishing them well and disregard the Christian origins of the phrase.

HOWEVER, HAVING AN ORGANIZED WORKPLACE EVENT, OR A PUBLIC EVENT/MESSAGE FROM PUBLIC INSTITUTION/FUNDS IS DIFFERENT. They should be inclusive of EVERYONE. I am fine with that bus saying "Merry Christmas" so long as it says "Ramadan Kareem" at the appropriate time of the year as well. And I'd be happy with organizing a Christmas event if my superior had also asked me to organize similar events for each holiday celebrated within our division.

I could ask my employees if they are offended with just having a Christmas event while not having something for their religious/cultural holidays. In terms of my employees, I'm sure each and every one of them would say that they are not offended. I don't know how honest a response that would be. First, most of them just don't like to stir the pot. They know that they are in the minority and admitting to something against the majority doesn't play well. "What is Don going to do with this information? Is he going to go to management and say that we can't have a Christmas party because I, Mohammed, feel self-concious about attending an event celebrating a Christian holiday? I don't want to get myself in that kind of trouble!" But secondly, there is that "I know my boss is the head of the social committee and typically organizes the parties, and my boss is a good guy and treats us employees well - it will probably make his life easier if we all just go along with the wishes of the majority".

But let's say for the moment that all 14 of my employees, and all 150 people in our division, no matter what their religious upbringing and culture.... every single one of them say with absolute 100% honesty that they have no problem whatsoever with only having a Christmas party. *I* think that it is more polite and more respectful TO THEM if we are inclusive. As their supervisor, I know these people are really great people and have done some fantastic work over the last year and I'm going to thank them for that work by celebrating someone else's religious holiday?

I've heard of several workplaces having "Festivus Parties". Festivus, is the made-up SECULAR holiday that is made up just for having fun. What I like about the idea, is again, it is inclusive. It welcomes everyone.

So.... in the end, it's not about a fear of offending Mohammed. It's out of respect for Mohammed as a person that I chose to have a "Holiday Season Party" rather than a "Christmas Party". I WANT to be inclusive and WANT him to feel 1000% welcome.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I remember when we finished a major project that I put an incredible amount of work into. I poured my heart and soul into that project and we had just delivered it to the client and they loved it. It was a major success. My boss at the time was delighted so he organized a surprise celebration pizza party for all staff involved on the project. He ordered pepperoni, meat-lovers and Hawaiian. He hadn't taken the time to get to know his staff, to know their beliefs and who they are as people to know that one of the key players (myself) was a vegetarian. I left the party. All that pizza was making me hungry and with each sniff of the pizza and grumble in my belly just made me more irate. I think that we, AS THOUGHTFUL AND POLITE PEOPLE, should strive to recognize EVERYONE, including recognizing the things that make us different. One extra pizza would have made a world of difference, but my supervisor had not taken the time to get to know me well enough to include me.

You can't ever please everyone. Most people, regardless of their religious convictions, have some sort of Christmas tradition. It may as well be Thanksgiving with presents. This isn't a separation of Church and State thing, it's an acknowledgement that most people dig December 25. If you don't, cool. But make no mistake, when we're actually trying to oppress you, you'll know.

And do you think for a second that a Muslim guy doesn't know it's Christmas time? He gets the day off too. By calling it a holiday party, it doesn't make things more inclusive, it means everyone now has the same lack of a connection to the event. If you really wanted to celebrate different cultures, offer to throw a Muslim-based event. And a Jewish one. And a Buddhist one etc etc for whoever wants it. Then, we might actually see a little more community developing at the workplace because the entire office has a little bit more of an understanding where everyone comes from.

Or we can pretend that everyone's the same, there's no difference, we should never do anything that might offend anyone, and clearly anyone who seriously complains about something as asinine as "Merry Christmas" is worthy of our attention.

[Clarkey]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

He hadn't taken the time to get to know his staff, to know their beliefs and who they are as people to know that one of the key players (myself) was a vegetarian. I left the party. All that pizza was making me hungry and with each sniff of the pizza and grumble in my belly just made me more irate. I think that we, AS THOUGHTFUL AND POLITE PEOPLE, should strive to recognize EVERYONE, including recognizing the things that make us different. One extra pizza would have made a world of difference, but my supervisor had not taken the time to get to know me well enough to include me.

Man up princess, it's pizza, pick the meat off or don't eat any. It sound like someone is a tad sensitive.

[bradster57]

Not to derail, but every pizza party I have been to the pepperoni, meat lovers, and Hawaiian is gone quickly, but there is inevitably lots of vegetarian left over.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Man up princess, it's pizza, pick the meat off or don't eat any. It sound like someone is a tad sensitive.

I don't get it... if I were Jewish and you held a party with only ham sandwiches, your stance would be "Tough Sh*t". Particularly odd stance for a supervisor trying to THANK his employees.

Originally Posted by bradster57

Not to derail, but every pizza party I have been to the pepperoni, meat lovers, and Hawaiian is gone quickly, but there is inevitably lots of vegetarian left over.

I must be going to the wrong parties, but I find that if I don't get to the table and grab a slice at the beginning, then I'm not getting any at all.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If you really wanted to celebrate different cultures, offer to throw a Muslim-based event. And a Jewish one. And a Buddhist one etc etc for whoever wants it. Then, we might actually see a little more community developing at the workplace because the entire office has a little bit more of an understanding where everyone comes from.

If I'm not mistaken, that's exactly what I said. Repeatedly. But I stand by my "All or Nothing". If you celebrate one, but not the other's then it is exclusive. If you celebrate all, then it is inclusive.

Claiming that Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity is ridiculous. We've been around that circle many times in this thread and it may be true for many families, but not recognizing it as having religious significance is foolhardy.

[CaptainCrunch]

I love the whole maybe he's saying Merry Christmas for naferious reasons.

Its not like the bus signs are saying Merry Christmas, convert to Christianity or we'll break you on the wheel.

there's nothing on the buses that to me signifies a link between Religion and state.

As much as this guy is bitching about pushing a message on him, he's certainly doing the same thing by pushing his complaint and his message coast to coast.

the guy is a hypocrite of the grandest order.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

If I'm not mistaken, that's exactly what I said. Repeatedly. But I stand by my "All or Nothing". If you celebrate one, but not the other's then it is exclusive. If you celebrate all, then it is inclusive.

Claiming that Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity is ridiculous. We've been around that circle many times in this thread and it may be true for many families, but not recognizing it as having religious significance is foolhardy.

Wishing everyone a "Merry Christmas" is extemely inclusive. It's not like the sign says; "You can have a Merry Christmas, but under no circumstance can you have a Happy Hannakuh (or whatever)". Do people who don't like Christmas need a bus sign to tell them to enjoy themselves for something?

[OffsideSpecialist]

From Wikipedia:

Some 78.5% of Saskatoon's inhabitants profess to be Christian, mostly Protestant (40.1%) and Roman Catholic (32.5%).[21] Another 19.6% of Saskatoon's inhabitants do not profess a religious faith at all.[21] Minority faiths include Sikhism, Buddhism (0.7%), Judaism, Hinduism, and Islam (0.6%).

In North America it seems most non-religious people celebrate some sort of Christmas, so if we assume that half of the non-religious folks in Saskatoon celebrate some sort of secular Christmas, that is about 88% of the population that celebrates Christmas. If I were to live in a city that was 88% Jewish or 88% Islamic, I would have no problem with their municipal governments catering to their religious beliefs and not mine.

[OffsideSpecialist]

Originally Posted by bradster57

Not to derail, but every pizza party I have been to the pepperoni, meat lovers, and Hawaiian is gone quickly, but there is inevitably lots of vegetarian left over.

The last pizza party I went to, all the ladies that asked for vegetarian ended up eating all the pepperoni and meat lovers

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

If I'm not mistaken, that's exactly what I said. Repeatedly. But I stand by my "All or Nothing". If you celebrate one, but not the other's then it is exclusive. If you celebrate all, then it is inclusive.

Claiming that Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity is ridiculous. We've been around that circle many times in this thread and it may be true for many families, but not recognizing it as having religious significance is foolhardy.

Santa Claus, shopping yourself into debt and throwing parties has nothing to to with Christianity. There are religious aspects of the day for religious people, and non-religious aspects for non religious. But it is still legally Christmas according to the government, and people are free to celebrate or not as they so choose.

So far, the one and only reason that has been presented on why it is wrong for city services to wish people a merry Christmas is "because I say so".

[Reaper]

Want to have some fun? When someone wishes you a Merry Christmas reply in a gutteral voice saying "The dark master forbids it." Then roll your eyes back in your head make the siren sound from Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

[Ped]

[QUOTE=Devils'Advocate;3977166]I don't get it... if I were Jewish and you held a party with only ham sandwiches, your stance would be "Tough Sh*t". Particularly odd stance for a supervisor trying to THANK his employees.
QUOTE]

On the other hand it sounds like an opportunity to educate (in a friendly way) any cultural differences on meat, etc.

I grew up in mostly white area of the country and had to learn to consider the differences when I started working among mostly east indians. They weren't rude about it they just informed me of what they could/couldn't eat, and the next time around no problem.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To me this is a whole jacka%% scenario. Wishing someone a merry christmas is not preaching or attempting to convert, its a well meaning statement.

If you can't accept a merry christmas from someone and react like this tool then your a small human being and have more problems then religion.

Putting Merry Christmas on a bus is not a government policy supporting organized religion, its not an evil plot to convert you to Christianity.

This. ^

Folks should look at a greeting like merry Christmas as generic for the season. they don't have to equate it to religion. If you want to make it religious, fine. If you think of Christmas as a non-religious holiday, fine also. I don't understand why anyone would make this a big deal. I get greetings for Jewish and Muslim holidays and it doesn't bother me.

[Sylvanfan]

One of the iron workers grabbed our islamic engineer and took him into someone else's office and started yelling at him yesterday. I was curious to find out if he told him to put down the book the Koran and say happy birthday Jesus, or if he was mad at some failed lifting configuration that he designed.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Christmas in our culture is about as secular a holiday as you could possibly get at this point. Is it really that big a deal to just be cool with 'Merry Christmas'? The purpose of which is to impart feelings of good cheer and glad tidings on random passerby?

It's Christmas time. If you celebrate something else, by all means, hit me with a Happy Hanukkah. Happy Holidays is meaningless PC BS that only serves to further limit the ability of our society to engage in polite discourse.

Merry Christmas Thor, and praise Odin.

I don't give a poop what people say, if a city bus has Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays.

I get a lot of these freaks have nothing better to do, but this isn't just about being PC, companies say Happy Holidays because they know not all their customers celebrate that holiday, so they cover everyone, not just Christians.

Of a list of important issues, this has to be near the bottom, and like I said before I find its most often people upset at those who say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.

[Thor]

Anyways, Merry Christmas you awesome CPers.

Spoiler!

[Minnie]

Holy blow out the thread image, Batman.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

So.... in the end, it's not about a fear of offending Mohammed. It's out of respect for Mohammed as a person that I chose to have a "Holiday Season Party" rather than a "Christmas Party". I WANT to be inclusive and WANT him to feel 1000% welcome.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I don't know or care who Mahammed is. If it was on a bus I wouldn't care if a picture of Mohammed was on it so I simply don't understand why any non-Christian would care if a bus had "Merry Christmas" on it. It's this type of divisive religion garbage that has ruined a lot of the world. All this bickering and fighting over fictitional gods really highlights just how low we still are on the evolutionary totem pole.

When you try to cater to everyone you cater to nobody and I feel being a Canadian doesn't mean what it used to as we have lost some of our identity.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

One of the iron workers grabbed our islamic engineer and took him into someone else's office and started yelling at him yesterday. I was curious to find out if he told him to put down the book the Koran and say happy birthday Jesus, or if he was mad at some failed lifting configuration that he designed.

We had to let go of two longtime employees that got into a fist fight over ra eligion disagreement. Both had mouths to feed at home and it never ceases to amaze me how much of a grip religion has on some people.