Harper's comments about the Bloc

[Reaper]

Originally posted by transplant99@Jun 30 2005, 09:35 AM

St. Ralph?? Wow.

Dude...falsely accusing anyone of being a woman beater is heinous. Sorry if you dont understand that.

So, I made a mistake. I admitted it and apologized. It's not like I made allegations that I knew to be untrue nor did I have an investigation launched.

So, can your fataing condescending attitude.

[Reaper]

Originally posted by MarchHare+Jun 30 2005, 09:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MarchHare @ Jun 30 2005, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-transplant99@Jun 30 2005, 09:35 AM

St. Ralph?? Wow.

Dude...falsely accusing anyone of being a woman beater is heinous. Sorry if you dont understand that.

I think for the first time in a political thread I'm in complete agreement with transplant. Falsely accusing anyone of being a wife-beater is pretty disgraceful, especially when it was a reading comprehension error on your part that gave you that notion.

I actually have to hand it to Klein...he's cleaned up his act so much recently that he can't even be accused of being a drunk or a high school drop-out anymore. [/b][/quote]
Well, I guess I'm the devil himself then.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Jun 30 2005, 04:43 PM
Our newly-won same-sex marriage rights, for one, as Harper has said that if the CPC forms the next government he plans to revisit that law.

And I hate to mention it, but the following facts are undeniable:

1. It has been reported in the Globe & Mail and elsewhere that radical Christian conservatives are winning a very large number of CPC riding nominations. These individuals are only concerned with one or two social issues, namely same-sex marriage and abortion.

2. It may be part of the official platform of the CPC not to overturn the law allowing legal abortions, but Harper himself has been quoted as saying he would allow a free-vote on the matter if it was introduced as a private member's bill.

3. There's very little doubt over how the majority of CPC candidates would vote on bills concerning abortion and same-sex marriage.

This isn't Liberal fear-mongering about a "hidden agenda". The facts speak for themselves.

Please show me where these policies are laid out in thier party platform, because I've gone throughout thier platform papers and policy statements and have never seen a single thing on overturning abortion.. Its unlikely that the Conservatives would turn over abortion or gay marriage once they got into law, because then the party itself would be destroyed. And Its a consitancy thing that the eastern media continually pulls out the conservative christian boogeyman, can someone give me the names of the so called massive amount of conservative christians that are winning these elections, besides Harper's beliefs or anyones beliefs are not on trial as long as they follow the mandate of thier ridings in the truest sense. This whole evil conservatives destroying our civil liberties and taking away our rights is as much of a crutch for the Liberals and thier supporters to lean on as the Conservatives must want to destroy Canada because they worked with the seperatists, and The Conservatives want to destroy the public health care system and follow the U.S. lead.

What are the globe and mail sources?

I'm sorry but the globe and mail isn't exactly fair and unbiased when it comes to the conservative party, and they have taken creative direction on more then one occassion.

And I still don't have problems with a free vote, isn't that what true democracy is suppossed to be based on? But if the Conservatives went in and played with the charter of rights and freedoms without the support of the populous how long do you think they would last.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Jun 30 2005, 09:43 AM
Our newly-won same-sex marriage rights, for one, as Harper has said that if the CPC forms the next government he plans to revisit that law.

And I hate to mention it, but the following facts are undeniable:

1. It has been reported in the Globe & Mail and elsewhere that radical Christian conservatives are winning a very large number of CPC riding nominations. These individuals are only concerned with one or two social issues, namely same-sex marriage and abortion.

2. It may be part of the official platform of the CPC not to overturn the law allowing legal abortions, but Harper himself has been quoted as saying he would allow a free-vote on the matter if it was introduced as a private member's bill.

3. There's very little doubt over how the majority of CPC candidates would vote on bills concerning abortion and same-sex marriage.

This isn't Liberal fear-mongering about a "hidden agenda". The facts speak for themselves.

The Globe & Mail trying to expose the Conservative bogeyman is hardly an "undeniable fact" there buddy. Neither is your 3rd point, which is just your opinion, undoubtedly based on sources like the G&M.

#2, admittedly, is kind of worrisome. There are two things in place though that could potentially prevent this kind of thing though. First, the public won't support a sweeping ban on abortion. The majority might support so-called "informed consent" laws, or a ban after 6 months (unless medically necessary, or for a minor). Would that kind of law be so terrible? (I don't have much of an opinion on this, so I don't know what would be terrible in your eyes!) Second, the senate is still dominated by Liberals and will be for a long time to come. I don't know how often they actually do anything, but I have a feeling that any attempt at an anti-abortion law would get severely watered-down by them.

Man, this is off-topic

[RougeUnderoos]

Unless things have changed drastically in the last 48 hours then I think it's pretty obvious which way the CPCs would vote on same-sex marriage. Also, they've come out and said they would address it again when they become the government.

It also isn't just the liberal devils at the Globe and Mail saying Christian activists are winning nominations and looking to run for the CPCs. It's actually happening. They didn't just make it up.

I don't get all the denials about how they feel about abortion and gay marriage. They are conservatives after all.

[MarchHare]

Heh, why am I not surprised. Don't like the facts, so attack the messenger.

Here's the original G&M article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Art...National/Canada

Christian activists have secured Conservative nominations in clusters of ridings from Vancouver to Halifax -- a political penetration that has occurred even as the party tries to distance itself from hard-line social conservatism.

At least three riding associations in Nova Scotia, four in British Columbia, and one in suburban Toronto have nominated candidates with ties to groups like Focus on the Family, a Christian organization that opposes same-sex marriage.

How is this debatable? The candidates themselves even admit that they're right-wing socially conservative Christians.

Here's another source: http://www.citizenimpact.ca/latest/tory_image.html

The Conservative party’s nomination procedures have left it vulnerable to special interest groups, a flaw some long-time activists worry could reinforce negative stereotypes about the party. Some Tories fret that a recent flurry of nominations has elected several socially conservative candidates who may provide more fuel to Liberal criticisms of the party.

“It doesn’t really matter what the agenda is, it should concern a political party when there is an organized campaign to take over a nomination, whatever the cause or the group,” said Val Meredith, a former British Columbia MP who is now a consultant and lobbyist. “Canadians don’t want their parties dominated by special interests.” Meredith, a long-time Reform MP, was ousted last year as a Tory candidate after a bitterly contested nomination battle during which religious conservatives opposed her.

[...]

Moderates within the party have recently raised concerns that fundamentalist Christian organizations have succeeded in winning control over a clutch of riding associations in B.C., Ontario and Nova Scotia. In those ridings, candidates with ties to groups like the Christian Legal Defence Fund, Focus on the Family - which is affiliated with a well-funded U.S. organization of the same name - and to evangelical churches won nominations with the support of high-profile pastors.

Edit: You'll notice they quoted a long-time Reform Party member there, not a Liberal fear-mongerer.

And how is my Point #3 questionable? How many Tory MPs voted in favour of the same-sex marriage legislation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't over 95% of Conservative Party MPs vote against Bill C-38?

Please show me where these policies are laid out in thier party platform, because I've gone throughout thier platform papers and policy statements and have never seen a single thing on overturning abortion.

As I acknowledged above, it is not part of the CPC platform to overturn abortion, because doing so would spell instant election defeat for the Tories. But Harper has been quoted as saying he would allow a free vote if a private member was to introduce such legislation. That, to me, is quite worrisome.

This source actually comes from a conservative pro-life site. Are you going to dismiss it as a pro-Liberal rag too?

Earlier this month, Harper said that as a Conservative Prime Minister, he would allow a free vote in the House should a private member's bill be brought forward on the subject of abortion.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/jun/04061407.html

[Shawnski]

Just curious March,

Do you think there are any candidates out there that do not have support from some sort of "special interest" group?

Is there any flags being raised over ridings where members have, for example, Islamic beliefs? Budist beliefs? etc?

Why is it that the Christian flag is being raised all the time?

For the record, I have no religious beliefs to speak of, so it matters not to me personally. But as someone who truly believes in fiscal responsibility, be it governmental, corporate, and personal, I feel that my viewpoint of being on the right in my voting patterns gets tainted for the wrong reasons, and correspondingly, parties like the CPC getting painted with the "Christian extremsist" brush just doesn't ring true to me. To me, the person I vote for should be like the one you want as a neighbour. Will listen to you, will help you out if you need it, won't rip you off all the time, won't tell lies to your face..... in other words, they can be trusted. So to me, having a lying, thieving neighbour is about the last thing I want. Give me the person with a little moral background anytime.

[Resolute 14]

Show me a news source other than the globe and mail...

On same sex marriage: No rights are being blocked. Even the CPC has said that it will extend the same rights to gay unions as it does straight marriages. This entire fight is over a word, nothing more.

On abortion: You are deluded and fear mongering if you think the CPC would vote to eliminate abortion. There is absolutely no way that the CPC lets it happen without a strong demand from the public, which is not forthcoming. Such a move would be political suicide.

[MarchHare]

Do you think there are any candidates out there that do not have support from some sort of "special interest" group?

In local politics surely, and I once worked on the campaign of a former NB MLA who I didn't see as having any kind of special interest backing.

At the federal level, though? Probably not.

Why is it that the Christian flag is being raised all the time?

Well, Christians are the dominant majority religion in North America, and in our neighbour to the South they have almost completely co-opted the Republican Party (much to the chagrin of many American fiscal conservatives, I might add). I think it's easy for Canadians to look at what's happening in the US and say that that isn't what we want here.

The thing with religious activists that bothers me (and since Christians are the most common form of religious activists here, they are singled out more than others) is that they try to push their morality onto everyone. For example, allowing gay marriage or abortion doesn't affect Christians opposed to them in the least; they are perfectly free to choose not to participate in either of those activities. But to pass a law banning either one affects the free choices of others.

As you claim to be a non-religious fiscal conservative, this ought to worry you. Your party is losing support -- perhaps enough to cost them an election win -- because they haven't done enough to distance themselves from the more radical social conservatives. This may surprise you, but I too tend to think conservatively on fiscal issues, but I would never vote for a party with such close ties to the fundamentalist religious right.

Many people have predicted an upcoming schism in the US's Republican Party between the socially-moderate fiscal conservatives and the radical Christian element. I think the 2008 Republican primary should be quite interesting for this reason. Since it appears the CPC is being held back by their more vocal social conservatives, I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar division here either.

[Shawnski]

March, I do understand your concern about fiscal responsibilities. You have stated this before, and I appreciate that.

I believe whole heartedly that the influx of so called "extremists" into the party as candidates is folly though. I would think that you as well can see this to be media driven, and politically sensitive, thus resulting in a perpetual case of playing up voter fears.

But today, after 18 holes at McCall Lake, where I shot a 10 on a par five and a 2 on a par three, while constantly having my blood vacuumed out by mosquitoes, I just am not going to debate ya on it!!!

Today, I am replenishing that lost blood with beer.... one swig for every bite I got. Be prepared to call 911 around 9 PM!!!

:P

[MarchHare]

But today, after 18 holes at McCall Lake, where I shot a 10 on a par five and a 2 on a par three, while constantly having my blood vacuumed out by mosquitoes, I just am not going to debate ya on it!!!

Today, I am replenishing that lost blood with beer.... one swig for every bite I got. Be prepared to call 911 around 9 PM!!!

Cheers!

I'm actually about to leave work, then I'm on vacation starting tomorrow for the next 10 days (doing a Western Canada roadtrip with my girlfriend), so this will also be my last post on the matter. Enjoy your long weekend.

[Shawnski]

Enjoy your long weekend, and subsequent vacation too, March.

NOW's the time for you to be "liberal"!!