Liberals pass bill

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally posted by duncan+Jun 25 2005, 07:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (duncan @ Jun 25 2005, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MarchHare@Jun 24 2005, 02:26 PM

By "the East" do you mean "Ontario" or do you mean Eastern Canada? Because in both the 1997 and 2000 elections Atlantic Canada voted heavily against the Liberal Party, with the PC and NDP winning dozens of seats in the region.

Let me tell you something as a former citizen of New Brunswick -- the Maritimes have even less of a voice in Ottawa than the West does, but they're at least smart enough not to form (and vote for en masse) a regional protest party that will never do anything more than be the opposition and huff and complain about their region being ignored. The West could have worked within the existing parties to try to gain more influence. Instead, you opted to form a protest party that never stood any chance of forming a national government and then complain bitterly when the MPs you voted for aren't able to advance your interests from the opposition side of Parliament.

Thanks for playing indeed.

You might want to get some facts straight. In 1997, the Maritimes did see a change in its voting, but 2000 saw a 25%+ drop in PC seats in the East.

!993
the PC party held 1 seat in the East, while the Liberals owned 31 and NDP none

1997
PC 13
Liberals 11
NDP 8

2000
PC 9
LIb 19
NDP 4


The PC hasn't held a seat in PEI since before 1993, it has had a Liberal sweep. [/b][/quote]
I think what he ment was the Liberals went from 31 seats to 11 (according to what you posted, I'm too lazy to double check, haha). Tha'ts a big drop, also in the 1997 the Minister of Defense (name escapes me at the moment, held a Northern New Brunswick seat) and the Minister of Heatlh (from my riding David Dingwall) were both ousted by political unknowns (in Dingwall's case it was a no-nothing wingbat by the name of Michelle Dockrill, to which Cape Breton is STILL feeling the effects of her incompetance).

If you wonder how the East can vote for the "Fiberals" it's because atleast where I'm from when we did we took it up the ass fairly badly.

Now have MacKay as leader (a really smart guy, knows his stuff, I have alot of respect for him, and think he'd make a great leader) then I doubt you'd lose support in the west and you'd gain a PILE in the East. The only real reason the PC's never won any seats under MacKay in the East was because everyone knew the PC's were a broken party, but the CPC actually has power, and the chance to win gov't under MacKay (IMO).

Will Onatrio and Quebec vote for them? With and Eastern swing would they have to?

[transplant99]

Well just to confirm how arrogant Martin is and how stupid he believes Canadians to be, he has this quote in the Sun today about the "trick" he used to pass the budget.

Prime Minister Paul Martin called the manoeuvre "standard parliamentary procedure" which everybody is aware of.

Really?

So hastily called midnight votes are standard procedure now?

The first time in Canadian history the official opposition didnt have a chance to debate the budget before a vote...is standard procedure?

Paul Martin is a bald faced, flat out liar.

Nothing new for the Fiberals here though.

[duncan]

Originally posted by Maritime Q-Scout@Jun 25 2005, 11:33 AM
I think what he ment was the Liberals went from 31 seats to 11 (according to what you posted, I'm too lazy to double check, haha). Tha'ts a big drop, also in the 1997 the Minister of Defense (name escapes me at the moment, held a Northern New Brunswick seat) and the Minister of Heatlh (from my riding David Dingwall) were both ousted by political unknowns (in Dingwall's case it was a no-nothing wingbat by the name of Michelle Dockrill, to which Cape Breton is STILL feeling the effects of her incompetance).

If you wonder how the East can vote for the "Fiberals" it's because atleast where I'm from when we did we took it up the ass fairly badly.

Now have MacKay as leader (a really smart guy, knows his stuff, I have alot of respect for him, and think he'd make a great leader) then I doubt you'd lose support in the west and you'd gain a PILE in the East. The only real reason the PC's never won any seats under MacKay in the East was because everyone knew the PC's were a broken party, but the CPC actually has power, and the chance to win gov't under MacKay (IMO).

Will Onatrio and Quebec vote for them? With and Eastern swing would they have to?

I hadn't had a chance to finish my train of thought, I had to go to work.

What I was showing, was that 1997 was a blip on the radar. In '97, the Liberals took a huge hit, dropping 20 seats, but have steadily climbed back up over the past 2 elections, taking more than half back. The Conservatives have lost half of their seats as have the NDP. The Liberals have owned PEI for ther past decade.

In Ontario;
the Liberals took a 30% loss in seats in 2004, while the Conservatives jumped from 2 seats to 24.

The Conservatives will not get a government until they get more than 7 seats East of Ontario.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally posted by duncan@Jun 25 2005, 12:42 PM
I hadn't had a chance to finish my train of thought, I had to go to work.

What I was showing, was that 1997 was a blip on the radar. In '97, the Liberals took a huge hit, dropping 20 seats, but have steadily climbed back up over the past 2 elections, taking more than half back. The Conservatives have lost half of their seats as have the NDP. The Liberals have owned PEI for ther past decade.

In Ontario;
the Liberals took a 30% loss in seats in 2004, while the Conservatives jumped from 2 seats to 24.

The Conservatives will not get a government until they get more than 7 seats East of Ontario.

ok I can agree with that. CPC needs seats East of Ontario, personally I think MacKay can deliver those whereas Harper won't.

1997 could be argued a blip, but I know atleast where I'm from it went from voting for individuals (against Dingwall in 97, against Dockrill in 00, which actually took down one of the best MPs I've seen in a long time in Peter Mancini in the neighbouring riding as well). 2000 and 04 people voted for the party (Liberal in Eyking and Cuzner) rather than the individuals themselves (I don't mean that as a knock against either MP).

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by transplant99@Jun 25 2005, 01:44 PM
Well just to confirm how arrogant Martin is and how stupid he believes Canadians to be, he has this quote in the Sun today about the "trick" he used to pass the budget.

Really?

So hastily called midnight votes are standard procedure now?

The first time in Canadian history the official opposition didnt have a chance to debate the budget before a vote...is standard procedure?

Paul Martin is a bald faced, flat out liar.

Nothing new for the Fiberals here though.

Actually, it's not the first time this tactic was used in Canada.

Also, most of the conservatives made it back in time to vote. The fact they were caught off guard, and not anyone else, should speak more to their political savvy than anything else.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Jun 25 2005, 01:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Jun 25 2005, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-transplant99@Jun 25 2005, 01:44 PM
Well just to confirm how arrogant Martin is and how stupid he believes Canadians to be, he has this quote in the Sun today about the "trick" he used to pass the budget.

Really?

So hastily called midnight votes are standard procedure now?

The first time in Canadian history the official opposition didnt have a chance to debate the budget before a vote...is standard procedure?

Paul Martin is a bald faced, flat out liar.

Nothing new for the Fiberals here though.

Actually, it's not the first time this tactic was used in Canada.

Also, most of the conservatives made it back in time to vote. The fact they were caught off guard, and not anyone else, should speak more to their political savvy than anything else. [/b][/quote]
somebody call the fire department!

that my friends is a burn

[transplant99]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Jun 25 2005, 12:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Jun 25 2005, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-transplant99@Jun 25 2005, 01:44 PM
Well just to confirm how arrogant Martin is and how stupid he believes Canadians to be, he has this quote in the Sun today about the "trick" he used to pass the budget.

Really?

So hastily called midnight votes are standard procedure now?

The first time in Canadian history the official opposition didnt have a chance to debate the budget before a vote...is standard procedure?

Paul Martin is a bald faced, flat out liar.

Nothing new for the Fiberals here though.

Actually, it's not the first time this tactic was used in Canada.

Also, most of the conservatives made it back in time to vote. The fact they were caught off guard, and not anyone else, should speak more to their political savvy than anything else. [/b][/quote]
Nonsense. I realize it wasnt "the first time" it was used. It should not of been done like that....no matter who you support, this was a slimeball, very Paul Matinesque move.

Its still reeks of desperation and deceit by the Fiberals...especially when they had to make a deal with BQ, just to get the vote to happen at that time of night.

Who was complaining about the PC's making a deal with the BQ again? (When they really didnt make any such deal)

I wonder if you Fiberals are willing to admit, how bizarre it is for your heroes to be making a deal with the NDP and the seperatists, to push through an NDP driven budget and make sure the BQ gets its vote on the same sex bill? Yet still have the audacity to claim...and i quote from one of your own in this thread alone...

What deal did Martin make with the Bloc?

hypocrisy indeed.

In a surprise move, and with a number of Conservative MPs missing, the Liberals marched out a rarely used obscure procedural motion to cut off all debate and force an immediate vote on the budget.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...ment050624.html

[Mike F]

Originally posted by transplant99@Jun 25 2005, 11:58 AM
I wonder if you Fiberals are willing to admit, how bizarre it is for your heroes to be making a deal with the NDP and the seperatists, to push through an NDP driven budget and make sure the BQ gets its vote on the same sex bill? Yet still have the audacity to claim...and i quote from one of your own in this thread alone...

hypocrisy indeed.

Sorry, but what deal did they make with the BQ?

I know they made a budget deal with the NDP (i.e. they ammended their budget to add NDP provisions in order to secure NDP support), but here the Liberals had planned all along to move on to the same-sex bill. The Liberals didn't give the BQ anything or alter their plans at all, the BQ just agreed with what the Liberals were already going to do.



On a more general point: How exactly do you Conservative supporters see a Conservative minority gov't working?

You don't think that a Conservative minority is going to have to make concessions and deals with the socialists, seperatists or Fiberals? Do you honestly think a Harper gov't would come in and table purely Conservative bills with no concessions to other parties?

It would be a recipe for one of the most ineffective gov'ts in Canadian history, which is why it wouldn't happen. PM Harper and the Conservative gov't would at least try to make deals to get it's legislation passed, which would mean the whole right wing of this board would either have to turn on them in outrage, or become burried under a mountain of hypocracy.

It's almost wort voting Conservative just to find out.

[FlamesAddiction]

People who hate the Liberals need to start focusing their energy in a different direction and demand better from their Conservative party. As much as the Liberals manage to screw up, they are also the only party that has shown that they can be effective and that they know the ins and outs of the system. The opposition party we have right now is damn useless. They are probably the most ineffective opposition ever - and this is a minority government!! They were too busy drinking beer and getting ready to party for the weekend, that they failed to be astute.

The only thing Harper has proven so far is that he is the political eqivalent of arse wipe. No matter how many times the Liberal shinguard themselves, they have a never ending supply of 2-ply as long as the Conservative party in Canada maintains it current form. The recent parliamentary victory of the Libs only points to the Conservatives failure.

As much as the Liberal party has turned people off lately, the Conservative whining and ineptude has not helped diminish the Liberal popualrity. If the Conservatives can't even be an effective opposition, how are they ever going to govern?

/end rant

[transplant99]

People who hate the Liberals need to start focusing their energy in a different direction and demand better from their Conservative party

No...i need to demand more from the Liberals...after all they ARE the damn ruling party right?

My bewilderment and displeasure with the Fibs is quite well placed thanks very much.

Its the Liberal supporters that blow my mind more than anything else.

They steal, they lie, they are as wishy-washy as a wet sponge, yet people still say they are the "only" real option.

Mind boggling.

[MarchHare]

They steal, they lie, they are as wishy-washy as a wet sponge, yet people still say they are the "only" real option.

Tell me then which party I should vote for, given the following:

1. I am somewhat of a fiscal conservative, and given the NDP's track record whenever they've been in charge of a province, I don't trust them to run the finances of the country. Say what you will about the gun registry and other Liberal programs, but at least they've given us eight consecutive balanced or surplus budgets.

2. I am a social liberal and disagree with the Conservative Party on most of their non-fiscal policies.

3. I don't believe in wasting my vote on a party that stands no chance of winning (Green Party, Marijuana Party, etc.).

So given that, who should I vote for? While I'm certainly not happy about everything the Liberals have done in the last 12 years, overall I feel they've given us good government. Since I have serious problems with the other two major parties, the Liberals are my only choice.

And as I've mentioned before, I would very seriously consider voting for a fiscally conservative/socially progressive party if one existed. The PC Party would have had my vote in 2004 if they hadn't merged with the Alliance.

[transplant99]

I couldnt care less who you vote for...its your choice.


However, these constant posts defending the current government and trying to paint the CPC as hypocrites is ridiculous.


The CURRENT sitting ruling party of this country

lies

steals

cheats

Period.

They are not worth trying to defend as their record speaks for itself.

But like sheep...people will still vote for them over and over and over and over.

Remember when Chretians "red book" assured Canadians they would repeal the GST?? Hows that coming? Can I expect a midnight vote on that next week? :unsure:

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Jun 25 2005, 01:40 PM
People who hate the Liberals need to start focusing their energy in a different direction and demand better from their Conservative party. As much as the Liberals manage to screw up, they are also the only party that has shown that they can be effective and that they know the ins and outs of the system.

Oh I absolutely agree that we must demand better from the Conservative party.

However, that does not justify, mitigate or release the Liberals from accountability.

Canada is governed by a corrupt party that tosses democracy aside when it doesnt suit them. This surprise vote was only the latest example. This party ignores the needs of large portions of this nation, and exists to serve only itself. This party is directly responsible for the return to prominence of the PQ/BQ and the regrowth of Quebec seperatist sentiment. This party is directly responsible for the increased alienation of the West - in particular Alberta. This party is directly responsible for any deterioration in the health and education systems. This party is directly responsible for Canada repeatedly being embarrassed on the world stage.

You can whine about the CPC all you want. It's only crime so far is that it doesnt play politics nearly as well as the Liberals. When the so-called federal Liberals begin to work for the federation rather than themselves, I'll ease up on them.

I'm not holding my breath though.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Jun 25 2005, 03:28 PM
So given that, who should I vote for? While I'm certainly not happy about everything the Liberals have done in the last 12 years, overall I feel they've given us good government.

That, in a nutshell, describes Liberal supporters--they're happy with mediocrity. There's no reason Canada shouldn't be on par with America in economic terms, yet we're still lagging behind in per-capita GDP. The main reason for that is because it's the Canadian way to be happy languishing in mediocrity, rather than stirring things up when we get our only chance ONCE every 3 or 4 or 5 years.

It seems that Paul Martin's habit of telling us what we want---in his all-too-common soundbites "Canadians want <insert BS Liberal initiative here>"---that a lot of people are simply sitting back and saying, "oh..ok. Thanks for letting us know."

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Cube Inmate@Jun 25 2005, 09:09 PM

That, in a nutshell, describes Liberal supporters--they're happy with mediocrity. There's no reason Canada shouldn't be on par with America in economic terms, yet we're still lagging behind in per-capita GDP. The main reason for that is because it's the Canadian way to be happy languishing in mediocrity, rather than stirring things up when we get our only chance ONCE every 3 or 4 or 5 years.

That's hilarious.

You realize that it was the Mulroney Conservatives who sunk Canada's economy in the early '90s, among other things doubling the National debt from $250 to $500 billion, and the Liberals who turned it around to the point where we've been running surpluses for years.

[shoestring]

Originally posted by Snakeeye+Jun 25 2005, 09:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snakeeye @ Jun 25 2005, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAddiction@Jun 25 2005, 01:40 PM
People who hate the Liberals need to start focusing their energy in a different direction and demand better from their Conservative party. As much as the Liberals manage to screw up, they are also the only party that has shown that they can be effective and that they know the ins and outs of the system.

Oh I absolutely agree that we must demand better from the Conservative party.

However, that does not justify, mitigate or release the Liberals from accountability.

Canada is governed by a corrupt party that tosses democracy aside when it doesnt suit them. This surprise vote was only the latest example. This party ignores the needs of large portions of this nation, and exists to serve only itself. This party is directly responsible for the return to prominence of the PQ/BQ and the regrowth of Quebec seperatist sentiment. This party is directly responsible for the increased alienation of the West - in particular Alberta. This party is directly responsible for any deterioration in the health and education systems. This party is directly responsible for Canada repeatedly being embarrassed on the world stage.

You can whine about the CPC all you want. It's only crime so far is that it doesnt play politics nearly as well as the Liberals. When the so-called federal Liberals begin to work for the federation rather than themselves, I'll ease up on them.

I'm not holding my breath though. [/b][/quote]
I agree with this and T99,above this quote.
How can you rationalize Liberals doing this because they know "politics".
I for one do not think Harper is bought by the Martin Steamships Company and I'm sure has no desire to afford them a tax break.So he doesn't know the "system"? Good.
Maybe he is looking for honesty and integrity in politicians. Maybe I am naive.

After watching a lot of posts about politics in this forum two things.

Provincial politics have very little to do with how that same province votes federally.

Good government in the last twelve years is a fallacy,I could have been PM and showed favourable economic results. It is funny how Nfld and all the major unemployed provinces have grabbed onto Danny Williams deal.Gee were they getting ripped off. TOO!! Good for them go for it.



I want a government that doesn't lie ,cheat,scam,..blah ,blah to stay in power.
That is liberal politics (the activities and methods of a party)
I want a government that can make policies for the better of us all.
policy (any plan or principle that guides in decision making)
Just because some policies aren't what you see as correct in a party ;does NOT mean that the party can't be persuaded to re analyze that policy.
What the Liberals are doing is corrupting themselves and the Canadian government to get there policies shoved through no matter how much you do or do not agree with them. Disgusting and seen throughout the world as amateurs,except by dictators.
Harper makes some errors as a politician but his policies are far more advanced than the schemers I have watched for my whole life.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by shoestring@Jun 26 2005, 05:10 AM
.
Harper makes some errors as a politician but his policies are far more advanced than the schemers I have watched for my whole life.

But if he can't even run an effective opposition to a battered Liberal government, how on Earth would he ever LEAD a government? The guy's party doesn't know if it is coming or going half the time, and the other half, it's just not sure!

I see choosing between the Liberals and Conservatives like choosing between the Skipper (Libs) and Gilligan (Cons). Sure the Skipper crashed the boat, and sure he can be a bit of a jerk, but at least he isn't a total ignoramus.

[shoestring]

Gee I don't know .He didn't really want to be a leader he wanted
to write policy.
He is learning the role ( ie rookie)( with some bad advice possibly)
but he is an honest godfearing citizen trying to find a good economic
way for us. And I could give a hoot about GOD.
And your analogy sucks because those guys are both idiots.
Martin is not an idiot but a sleazy politico. Harper is not an idiot and I for one am glad he has not figured out how to become a lowlife like several of the liberals.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Mike F+Jun 25 2005, 09:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike F @ Jun 25 2005, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cube Inmate@Jun 25 2005, 09:09 PM

That, in a nutshell, describes Liberal supporters--they're happy with mediocrity.# There's no reason Canada shouldn't be on par with America in economic terms, yet we're still lagging behind in per-capita GDP.# The main reason for that is because it's the Canadian way to be happy languishing in mediocrity, rather than stirring things up when we get our only chance ONCE every 3 or 4 or 5 years.

That's hilarious.

You realize that it was the Mulroney Conservatives who sunk Canada's economy in the early '90s, among other things doubling the National debt from $250 to $500 billion, and the Liberals who turned it around to the point where we've been running surpluses for years. [/b][/quote]
Nope. It was the Trudeau Liberals that helped make the recession much worse for Canada than it could have been (the recession itself was global), and it was the Mulrooney Conservatives that had to deal with it. While Mulrooney wasnt that great, Chretien did benefit greatly from some of the policies the Conservatives put into place.

Of course, the Chretien Liberals did balance the budget, which is to their credit, but they only did so by enacting the largest tax increase in Canadian history (CPP increase in 1999) and by slashing funding for health care and education.

Jean Chretien was the textbook definition of mediocrity. Did he ever actually accomplish anything of note during his decade as Prime Minister that will benefit Canadains?

[transplant99]

Jean Chretien was the textbook definition of mediocrity. Did he ever actually accomplish anything of note during his decade as Prime Minister?

Of course he did!

He left us with this piece of Canadiana lore...

A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven!

How utterly embarrassing.