Harpers F35s not quite cleared for takeoff

[Slava]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

Could someone give me a brief rundown on why the costs on the jets keep soaring so much? Isn't the jet already developed and being manufactured? Why does the cost go from 10's of billions?

Because the costs were always expected by many to be that high, but the government was denying it. They somehow figured that they could do this for much cheaper.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

Not sure if you are serious. That is just like the fine print on a credit card terms sheet. I guess that's all that is needed when you are talking about a $10 billion difference.

Whatever comrade Che, the point of the article is that the true costs were known and disclosed. When they say the cost of the jets will be 16 billion its not really the truth or a lie, but the grey area that is politics during an election.

[Tinordi]

Textbook example of the sports fan ethic of political partisanship in this thread. Shameful

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by karl262

Whatever comrade Che, the point of the article is that the true costs were known and disclosed. When they say the cost of the jets will be 16 billion its not really the truth or a lie, but the grey area that is politics during an election.

Comrade Che - this is the best you got? I voted conservative last election, I support most of their policies but that doesn't make me blind to lying and deception. Go sell your partisan opinions somewhere else.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

Could someone give me a brief rundown on why the costs on the jets keep soaring so much? Isn't the jet already developed and being manufactured? Why does the cost go from 10's of billions?

Because the armament industry is about 2/3rds more corrupt than the drug trade and it is hard to know quite how big the massive backhanders have to be until you get to the end of the process and all of the various bills for hookers and blow have been paid.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

Could someone give me a brief rundown on why the costs on the jets keep soaring so much? Isn't the jet already developed and being manufactured? Why does the cost go from 10's of billions?

I heard a man being interviewed awhile ago, some political science professor from down east whose field of specialty is national defense.

He made this analogy.

Any new capital purchase for national defense, be it a fighter jet, tank, submarine, helicopter....can not be likened to something as simple as buying a new car off a dealer's lot.

He said that no matter what is purchased for national defense, the public should always expect overruns. He said most of these purchases are made in the developmental stage. The F35 falls into that category and he said the development still is not finalized. He also said that because items of purchase of this kind do not fall into mass production like most vehicles that we drive, one should also be prepared to put more money and unexpected money towards R&M than originally expected.

He also is of the opinion that Peter Mackay is one of the best defense ministers he can think of. He said the Department of Defense is one of the hardest portfolios to get a handle on and all too often, the Minister put in charge does not stay in that portfolio long enough to get completely familiarized with it. He said that is not the case with Mackay and Peter knows it inside and out.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by redforever

I heard a man being interviewed awhile ago, some political science professor from down east whose field of specialty is national defense.

He made this analogy.

Any new capital purchase for national defense, be it a fighter jet, tank, submarine, helicopter....can not be likened to something as simple as buying a new car off a dealer's lot.

He said that no matter what is purchased for national defense, the public should always expect overruns. He said most of these purchases are made in the developmental stage. The F35 falls into that category and he said the development still is not finalized. He also said that because items of purchase of this kind do not fall into mass production like most vehicles that we drive, one should also be prepared to put more money and unexpected money towards R&M than originally expected.

He also is of the opinion that Peter Mackay is one of the best defense ministers he can think of. He said the Department of Defense is one of the hardest portfolios to get a handle on and all too often, the Minister put in charge does not stay in that portfolio long enough to get completely familiarized with it. He said that is not the case with Mackay and Peter knows it inside and out.

I think this depends on what, and how you buy things, there is a whole industry out there that supplies off the rack weapons systems but they are not as advanced as the kit we want, Brazil or Isreal, France will all quote you a 'no dicker sticker price' for a plane or a tank or the like but it won't have all the cool options we want.

[Slava]

Thats all well and good, but whether Mackay is a good defence minister and whether the public should expect overruns aren't in question. The bottom line is that the PMO, DND and ministry of defence blatantly lied about the costs of the jets. They knew it would cost more than they were saying, and both knowingly and willingly mislead parliament.

To make matters more deplorable though, people who questioned this were derided and attacked. Remember when parliament voted to find the CPC in contempt? People seemed to treat it as a non-event and scoff at the notion. People basically assumed it was a political stunt and in our thread were essentially laughing at the stupid opposition.

Now though, we have no recourse to find out what really happened. We had a committee where answers were being sought, and where people have to answer. The CPC refused to show though, and managed to deceive enough people for long enough to win the election.

So now its even more ridiculous. The AG clearly shows the problems and the party can't answer whether they will accept the report. They are trying some lame attempt to say that the way the budgeting is done here is different (despite it being the same as every other project for DND).

Its a pathetic excuse for a government that has lied and mislead parliament. There really can be no higher crime in our democracy.

[SebC]

Wasn't sure if this warrented a new thread, but a list of Department of Defence funding cuts was leaked to the Ottawa Citizen.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/04...-to-meet-cuts/

The Canadian Forces will get rid of its air defence equipment, shut down military housing in Toronto, Vancouver and Winnipeg and cut back on army training, according to documents leaked to the Ottawa Citizen.

Pilots will also fly less, security units made up of reservists who guard ports will be disbanded and buildings will be closed in Moncton, N.B., and other locations to save money.

The Canadian Forces will also get rid of its TOW 2 launchers and missiles, just three years after the government approved the $100-million purchase of the weapons.

[...]

Privately, military officers say some of the moves, such as getting rid of the older Leopard 1 tanks as well as outdated radios and vehicles, make sense. Others, however, have questioned disposing of the Air Defence Anti-Tank System (ADATS) since that largely eliminates the air defence capability in the Canadian Forces.

In addition, the decision to get rid of the newly purchased TOW 2 missiles doesn’t make sense, they say, since the savings would be around $20 million, while more than $100 million was spent to acquire the weapons.

I hope to see an assessment from Captain Cruch as the importance of ADATS and TOW 2.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'll have to look at the cuts in more detail when I have time.

However I don't think that cutting the Tow-2 and ADAT cuts make a lot of sense to me.

The ADAT was pretty much reaching the end of its effective life though it was originally going to be canceled out about 5 years ago. But it was a unique weapons system in that it could kill planes and tanks. Air defense for the military is key, and they need to find a replacement system for it eventually. Man pack anti air missile systems aren't a good answer, you need a radar driven anti air component that can shoot down planes before they're sited.

Personally anti air defense systems should be a key part of our arctic defense strategy, and a mobile system is harder to destroy then a static air defense system.

The Tow-2 missile cancellation is just stupid. its a relatively small amount of money, and you really want to be able to continually train your infantry in anti-armour doctrine.
Canada does retain the Eryx misile system but its a decidedly shorter range missile system. The tow 2 has a range of about 3700 meters and a 6 kg explosive shaped charge warhead. The Eryx missile has a range of 600 meters and a 3.9 kg heat round. Its a markedly inferior weapons.

However there continues to be a budget crunch for the land forces, most of the armored vehicles that fought in Afghanistan are pretty much fought out and are in dire need of repair.

I strongly dislike the cut back on training programs and pilot training programs. You can get by with less equipment if you train more. But a poorly trained trooper no matter how well armed is basically meat.

[afc wimbledon]

This is my objection to the F 35, on the one hand we are prepared to spend a crap load of dosh to buy a state of the art fighter, on the other we cut air defence etc in what is in effect a tacit agreement that we are not going to get into a war, we are not even going to try and defend ourselves. There is no point in having an F 35 and no means of defending it's base's and support infrastucture.

[automaton 3]

Cutting the TOW-2 is foolish. ADATS should be replaced.

I get that there is only so much money to go around, but even then all kinds of questionable decisions coming out of the MoD. Might be time for a housecleaning.

[automaton 3]

And we have to stop "Canadianizing" equipment. We end up paying a fortune for orphan fleets.

Note the purchase of the new Hercs and Globemasters "off the shelf" in the US standard configuration went off without a hitch .

[Codes]

I'm a little bit concerned about the proposed cuts to the military. I understand that the defense of a nation as large as ours, with a population as low as ours is a monumental and exceedingly expensive operation.

Cuts to weapons systems aside, I am most discouraged to learn about the reductions in training our soldiers will receive. Canada has been able to overcome our technological disadvantages through superior training. I don't want the training, safety and efficiency of our forces to be hampered by these cuts.

[CaptainCrunch]

Hopefully they don't go back to the bad old days when I was in.

I was on a training excercise getting new recruits ready and we had limited blank ammunition.

As a enemy force member myself and my team were encouraged to yell bang after we burned through our two issued magazines.

It was a three day training excercise where we ambushed the basic trainees. 60 rounds lasts about 4 minutes in a ambush, so for 2 days and 22 hours myself and my team of three (we managed to find knockoff Soviet style cammo gear and armor beretes at Crown) ran around like idiots basically yelliing bang bang I got you.

I kept waiting to hear some idiot screaming back "No you didn't"

[calumniate]

Hate to be the conspiracy guy here, but does anyone find the timing odd that 2 U.S. F-15s escorted that plane to Comox the other day?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Hate to be the conspiracy guy here, but does anyone find the timing odd that 2 U.S. F-15s escorted that plane to Comox the other day?

Nope the F-15's were the closest available, that's how Norad dispatch works.

Remember that duirng 9/11 Canadian F-18's patrolled over U.S. cities.

[Byrns]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Hopefully they don't go back to the bad old days when I was in.

I was on a training excercise getting new recruits ready and we had limited blank ammunition.

As a enemy force member myself and my team were encouraged to yell bang after we burned through our two issued magazines.

It was a three day training excercise where we ambushed the basic trainees. 60 rounds lasts about 4 minutes in a ambush, so for 2 days and 22 hours myself and my team of three (we managed to find knockoff Soviet style cammo gear and armor beretes at Crown) ran around like idiots basically yelliing bang bang I got you.

I kept waiting to hear some idiot screaming back "No you didn't"

I've yelled "LAW"! No they didn't hear me...

[NuclearPizzaMan]

Those Super Hornets are looking like a better deal all the time

[SebC]

http://www.montrealgazette.com/opini...870/story.html