Bicyclists suck!

[Coach]

Originally Posted by kevman

Why would Australia, such a warm country by Canada's standard, have such low cycling among women?

Maybe it's too hot half the time.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by chemgear

They are offset by the costs of taking care of these individuals who have brain damage from not wearing a helmet?

Yeah so we're even! But one way we have more bikes and less cars on the road!

[YYC in LAX]

I'm getting confused here. I thought it was legal for cyclists to move towards the front of the line at a red light, for example and hang out between the first car and the curb. I'm on the City of Calgary website but can't find what I'm looking for.

[MarchHare]

That's funny that a news article would show that when other stats show the opposite? Maybe it's a Manitoba thing?

The study cites cycling statistics from multiple provinces, not just Manitoba.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Take it from someone who has occasionally argued stupid, nonsensical points to the death; arguing that wearing a helmet while riding a bike doesn't make you safer is stupid and nonsensical. Trust me, I can recognize it when I see it. Takes one to know one kind of thing.

Missed this point...

I'm not arguing wearing a helmet isn't safer. Had I been I would have tried to present stats showing the added weight of a helmet makes you more likely to hit your head. Those stats exist by the way but I know THAT is a losing battle...

I simply said, while effectively hijacking the thread, that helmet laws are not an effective way to reduce cycling related head injuries.

[YYC in LAX]

Here's some good info regarding cycling on city street:

http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/BU/...y_handbook.pdf

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by YYC in LAX

I'm getting confused here. I thought it was legal for cyclists to move towards the front of the line at a red light, for example and hang out between the first car and the curb. I'm on the City of Calgary website but can't find what I'm looking for.

Lane splitting is illegal.

[mrgreen]

There's no way I'm stopping if there's no other visible traffic around in any direction.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by mrgreen

There's no way I'm stopping at a stop sign or 4way if there's no other visible traffic around in any direction. That's the only law I (knowingly) break cycling. I'm not stopping like a robot for 2 secs before moving off again for no reason.

Do you do the same while driving?

[kevman]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The study cites cycling statistics from multiple provinces, not just Manitoba.

Maybe they forgot Halifax?

The number of cyclists observed per day dropped from nearly 90 in 1995/96 to 34 in 1997 and 52 in 1998/99.

Canadian Medical Association Journal - March 5, 2002

Anecdotally, people form Vancouver discuss lower cycling use since BC's implementation of the law. The helmet law is also a major reason why the bike share program has been delayed in Vancouver. Australia's helmet law is also believed to be a major reason for the failure of it's nations bike share programs compared to those found in Europe.

[mrgreen]

Ha. Depends on the surroundings.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Do you do the same while driving?

You don't? Are you the guy in front of me that sits at a stale red light for 3 minutes at 3 am when there are no visible obstructions and you can clearly see there are no vehicles around?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

That's all well and good, but for the vast majority of my time on the road I do follow all of the rules (when no one is around I will zip through a stop sign), but when there's cars around I try to act like a car. I stay in my lane, I don't go to the front of the intersection and I stop at all the traffic signals. And guess what, I still amost get bumped multiple times by cars who decide I don't deserve a whole lane.

It's not just downtown either. The highway is worse. I don't know how I can be any more predictable than riding in a straight line down the highway, yet cars still decide they don't need to give me enough room to swerve to miss a pothole or something else when they pass me.

I haven't been cycling for very long, but I can see how cyclists become cynical very quickly and just say "Screw it, if cars aren't going to respect me and give me space, I'm just gonna do whatever I feel is safest for me".

It really is a chicken and egg thing, but the fact of the matter is even if all cyclists obeyed all of the rules, there would still be a lot of drivers who ignore the law and don't treat cyclists like another vehicle.

Alright, I'll grant you that highway riding is a different animal, but you're talking about specific instances of having to leave the shoulder to avoid obstacles, an activity which is inherently unpredictable, you're looking at obstacles on the shoulder, the driver isnt because hes not driving on the shoulder.

Heres my beef: What if motorists took the same attitude with their cars? "Screw it, if cyclists arent going to respect me and give me space, I'm just gonna do whatever I feel is safest for me!"

Thered be more youtube videos like fotze's.

Everyone has to follow the same rules or the whole thing breaks down. There cant be exceptions for cyclists for the obvious reason: I dont cycle, therefore I dont care what the rules for cyclists are, therefore I have no idea if there are exceptions.

And police should be pulling over and ticketing cyclists with the same glee and relish that they do with motorists in order to enforce it.

Originally Posted by Bunk

When I cycle I always make a point of obeying all traffic laws (including stop signs). I too get annoyed at cyclists that pick and choose which laws to abide by.

It's funny though that when you do obey the rules some drivers don't know how to react to it. I was at 14th street and 13th avenue SW. Waiting to cross 14th like any other car would. This one guy driving on 14th just stops and insists I go through (even though other cars are still, correctly, driving right on by). He gets mad, I yell. It was ugly.

I think the best solution is to really provide the right infrastructure for cycling to exist - both on and off street. It will clarify things. I think often cyclists are darting in and out of traffic, on and off sidewalks because there is no clear, legible or safe space for them. In places where that space is really well defined, these ped-cycle conflicts or ped-car conflicts are much reduced.

Thats pretty well the whole point. When you know that cyclists pick and choose thier traffic laws, your only option is to stop until the guy does whatever it is hes going to do and gets lost and then go about your way.

They're just too random for you to operate normally so you have to do nothing until they leave.

I will say, thats one benefit of living in a City with some considerable winter weather conditions, this stuff doesnt happen year round.

And whats all this nonsense about helmets? Wear a freaking helmet, it just makes sense, just like seatbelts. They're hardly an inconvenience. Unless you're Sikh.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by kevman

That's funny that a news article would show that when other stats show the opposite? Maybe it's a Manitoba thing?

Numbers in Australia are down after their law was implemented.
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/bicycle_numbers.html
Even more so considering that their population has increased...



Why would Australia, such a warm country by Canada's standard, have such low cycling among women?

Your graph isn't at all related to your point, and I'm not going through your article to find it for you. That graph shows the percentage of bike trips by women, I presume in relation to total bike trips. It shows nothing related to reduced bike usage following the implmentation of helmet laws.

As for your question on why the number in Australia is so small, there are a number of possible explanations. Sydney, where are large percentage of the population resides, is poorly setup for bike use. The central city compact with few bike lanes and entering the city from most directions requires the use of a bridge or tunnel. The outer suburbs are spread out, with major thoroughfares either being freeway style roads or those that are ill equipped to handle heavy traffic loads even without bicycles. There's also the fact, already pointed out, that for much of the year a good portion of the country is simply too damn hot for most people to consider riding a bike.

[MarchHare]

The number of cyclists observed per day dropped from nearly 90 in 1995/96 to 34 in 1997 and 52 in 1998/99.

With such a low sample size and that much variation between years, I wouldn't consider those findings to be statistically significant and certainly wouldn't draw any conclusions from them. A decline in ridership of nearly 66% between 1996 and 1997 but then a 50% increase in ridership the following year? Yeah, that's almost certainly a statistical aberration.

Anecdotally, people form Vancouver discuss lower cycling use since BC's implementation of the law. The helmet law is also a major reason why the bike share program has been delayed in Vancouver. Australia's helmet law is also believed to be a major reason for the failure of it's nations bike share programs compared to those found in Europe.

Even if we grant that helmet laws do, in fact, reduce the number of cyclists (which is a dubious claim at best given we've both provided conflicting data), why would that be? Are people who buy cycles that cost several hundred dollars too cheap to spend $20-30 on a helmet? Or do they think it's "uncool" to wear a helmet, so they choose not to ride?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Do you do the same while driving?

if there's no other traffic around? Quite often yes. I think less than I used to though.

If I'm riding on my bike, and there's other traffic at the intersection, I usually stop. I always come to a "rolling stop" on either car or bike (i.e. under ~5km/h). On a car, stopping that last 5 km/h isn't really a big deal, but on a bike, perhaps not a "big deal," but a biker is the most off balance (and thus in the most danger) when stopping or starting. What if my shoe doesn't come of my clip right away for some reason?

Personally, I'd support a rolling stop law for bicyclists at 4 way stops, (with conditions obviously). I wouldn't support it at red lights.

Also, I never pull ahead of waiting cars at a light. Frankly, my safety is more valuable than the 5 seconds it saves me. If there was specific infrastructure built to do pull up past cars, like some cities have, then I'd be all for it.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by YYC in LAX

Here's some good info regarding cycling on city street:

http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/BU/...y_handbook.pdf

Yeah, that is a good read...

• Ride predictably – Motorists cannot read your mind. Ride predictably and follow the rules of the road, so that you do not confuse other road users.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Also, I never pull ahead of waiting cars at a light. Frankly, my safety is more valuable than the 5 seconds it saves me. If there was specific infrastructure built to do pull up past cars, like some cities have, then I'd be all for it.

I do it and I jump the green light too so I can get up to speed and out of the way of cars, unless as mentioned before the road is narrow and cars will have trouble passing me after.

I also to through stop signs if there are no cars/pedestrians. If there are, I slow down enough for them to pass. I never stop. Clipping/unclipping is a hassle, no way I'm doing it at every stop.

And yup, I roll stop signs all the time in my car.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by kevman

You don't? Are you the guy in front of me that sits at a stale red light for 3 minutes at 3 am when there are no visible obstructions and you can clearly see there are no vehicles around?

That would be me. I didn't know I was allowed to choose when to blow through red lights and when to obey them. Is there a book or guide sheet that shows when I get to choose to obey traffic rules and when I can choose not to?

If you stop at all red lights and stop signs, whether on a bike or in a vehicle, you won't be in the wrong. If you get used to doing it all the time, it doesn't seem like a chore. If you run red lights at 3am, you might be prone to run one at 5pm when there is more traffic, thus putting others in danger.

If I am so concerned about the time I would be losing by stopping at stop signs, I will leave for my destination 30 seconds earlier. Problem solved.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

I also to through stop signs if there are no cars/pedestrians. If there are, I slow down enough for them to pass. I never stop. Clipping/unclipping is a hassle, no way I'm doing it at every stop.

And yup, I roll stop signs all the time in my car.

Well, at least you're consistent in your traffic law-violating ways regardless of your choice of vehicle.