Should Alberta separate?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 2 2005, 01:35 PM
A simple question, March and Winsor:

What has Canada contributed to Alberta's success?

This is a wierd question.

We're in Canada now. You're sitting on it. How do you extract Canada out of Alberta, and then try to identify its contributions? Sounds like we're restarting history.... now!

[MarchHare]

A simple question, March and Winsor:

What has Canada contributed to Alberta's success?

That's a rather strange question, for the reasons Agamemnon noted.

I think what you're trying to get at is "What has Canada's federal government done for Alberta?" and you want me to say something along the lines of "Alberta succeeds in spite of Ottawa, not because of it."

That's what you're going for, right?

[Flame On]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 2 2005, 06:35 AM
A simple question, March and Winsor:

What has Canada contributed to Alberta's success?

Is our province and city great because of the hard work of the people of Canada, as represtented by Ottawa, or the people of Alberta?

Flame On - That is one of the aspects of seperation that would need to be negotiated.

Your hypothetical is extremely simplistic. As much as you may wish it were so, this is not a fight because we are Conservative and they are Liberal. This is a fight because we have no voice whatsoever at the federal level. So long as a Western Republic ensured that the voices of all of it's citizens are fairly represented, then simply being Liberal minded in a Conservative country would not be the impetus for seperation.

Of course, the Klien PC's could make a strong statment in that direction by reforming the political electoral system as well...

How is simply being liberal minded enough? How is that different from not having your voices heard? If you were liberal minded in the new alberta and even in the current one, how is your voice ever heard? The answer I've had to that in the past here is to get out of Alberta if y ou don't like it. Which shows the lunacy of the seperatist whiners in my opinion.
What's this new Alberta going to do about a military too? That's a strong right wing core, a good military. A lot of the posters here would have to be drafted, which I would find hilarious! Have fun.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Flame On+May 2 2005, 02:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame On @ May 2 2005, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@May 2 2005, 06:35 AM
A simple question, March and Winsor:

What has Canada contributed to Alberta's success?

Is our province and city great because of the hard work of the people of Canada, as represtented by Ottawa, or the people of Alberta?

Flame On - That is one of the aspects of seperation that would need to be negotiated.

Your hypothetical is extremely simplistic. As much as you may wish it were so, this is not a fight because we are Conservative and they are Liberal. This is a fight because we have no voice whatsoever at the federal level. So long as a Western Republic ensured that the voices of all of it's citizens are fairly represented, then simply being Liberal minded in a Conservative country would not be the impetus for seperation.

Of course, the Klien PC's could make a strong statment in that direction by reforming the political electoral system as well...

How is simply being liberal minded enough? How is that different from not having your voices heard? If you were liberal minded in the new alberta and even in the current one, how is your voice ever heard? The answer I've had to that in the past here is to get out of Alberta if y ou don't like it. Which shows the lunacy of the seperatist whiners in my opinion.
What's this new Alberta going to do about a military too? That's a strong right wing core, a good military. A lot of the posters here would have to be drafted, which I would find hilarious! Have fun. [/b][/quote]
Why would we need a strong Military, Canada certainly dosen't have one. If we seperated and Canada decided to invade us, we could probably fight them off with a dozen slingshots and a biplane.

[kn]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+May 1 2005, 05:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ May 1 2005, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kn@May 1 2005, 10:51 PM


The call for separation among some Albertans is reactionary and nothing new.

It's also one of the reasons people in the east won't vote for the Reform party (in any name). The reactionary element is a real turn off for people who like stability. [/b][/quote]
Neither the Reform Party, Canadian Alliance nor the Conservative Party has ever advocated separation so why would central Canada consider them instable?

By reactionary, I was referring to a *very* small percentage of the population that call in talk-shows about separation or support parties like:

http://www.separationalberta.com

Does anyone really think this movement gets off the ground?

[Cheese]

such a silly topic....anyways I thought Id try to find Countries with populations under 3 million just for comparison sake....2004 Statistics...

Do you think Alberta could be as rich as the UAE or Kuwait...or would they be more like Gambia?

Mauritania 2,998,563
Congo, Democratic Republic of the (Zaire) 2,998,040
Armenia 2,991,360
Oman 2,903,165
Mongolia 2,751,314
Jamaica 2,713,130
United Arab Emirates 2,523,915
Latvia 2,306,306
Kuwait 2,257,549
Bhutan 2,185,569
Macedonia 2,071,210
Slovenia 2,011,473
Namibia 1,954,033
Lesotho 1,865,040
Botswana 1,561,973
Gambia, The 1,546,848
Guinea-Bissau 1,388,363
Gabon 1,355,246
Estonia 1,341,664
Mauritius 1,220,481
Swaziland 1,169,241
Trinidad and Tobago 1,096,585
East Timor 1,019,252
Fiji 880,874
Qatar 840,290
Cyprus 775,927
Guyana 705,803
Bahrain 677,886
Comoros 651,901
Transnistria 633,600
Solomon Islands 523,617
Equatorial Guinea 523,051
Djibouti 466,900
Luxembourg 462,690
Suriname 436,935
Cape Verde 415,294
Malta 396,851
Brunei 365,251
Somaliland 350,000
Maldives 339,330
Bahamas, The 299,697
Iceland 293,966
Barbados 278,289
Belize 272,945
Western Sahara 267,405
Abkhazia 250,000
Northern Cyprus 210,047
Vanuatu 202,609
São Tomé and Príncipe 181,565
Samoa 177,714
Saint Lucia 164,213
Nagorno-Karabakh 145,000
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 117,193
Tonga 110,237
Micronesia, Federated States of 108,155
Kiribati 100,798
Grenada 89,357
Seychelles 80,832
South Ossetia 70,000
Andorra 69,865
Dominica 69,278
Antigua and Barbuda 68,320
Marshall Islands 57,738
Saint Kitts and Nevis 38,836
Liechtenstein 33,436
Monaco 32,270
San Marino 28,503
Palau 20,016
Nauru 12,809
Tuvalu 11,468
Vatican City 911

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by kn@May 1 2005, 10:51 PM
One of the main factors that exacerbates regionalism is our antiquated electoral system. There are small 'l' liberals in Alberta just as there are small 'c' conservatives in Ontario and Quebec. Unfortunately, our first-past-the-post system hides these distinctions. In one sense it enables an efficient parliament when a majority is elected. However, I would argue the regional tensions it creates is a major drawback. Some political will in implementing proportional representation would go a long way in minimizing regionalism but it will never happen since governments will never change the system that just got them elected.

Hear, hear!

[kn]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@May 1 2005, 10:26 PM
I can't believe this post even exists.
Everytime I here Albertans talk about seperation I just have to laugh.
What is so bad about our deal in Alberta, Canada?

Pick up a history book. Western grievances have existed since the beginning, yes, even before oil. It's one of the main reasons Social Credit, the WFA and CCF were formed. The Crow Rate, high tariffs on raw materials (wheat) leaving the province for Ontario, forced to buy expensive finished goods from them while being unable to trade with the US are just some examples.

Add more modern examples like the NEP, CF-18 contract being awarded to Bombardier, the lack of Senate reform and you tend to see a trend of how the west has been treated in this confederation.

Western alienation has a long history; people just prefer to ignore it.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 2 2005, 07:25 AM

That's a rather strange question, for the reasons Agamemnon noted.

I think what you're trying to get at is "What has Canada's federal government done for Alberta?" and you want me to say something along the lines of "Alberta succeeds in spite of Ottawa, not because of it."

That's what you're going for, right?

That is exactly what I am asking, and I'm not asking you to make that statement. I am making it. I want to know what Canada has done for us.

[kn]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+May 2 2005, 07:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ May 2 2005, 07:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@May 2 2005, 01:35 PM
A simple question, March and Winsor:

What has Canada contributed to Alberta's success?

This is a wierd question.

We're in Canada now. You're sitting on it. How do you extract Canada out of Alberta, and then try to identify its contributions? Sounds like we're restarting history.... now! [/b][/quote]
Not at all. Alberta has been the biggest net contributor in terms of transfer of wealth. It's more than fair for this province to ask for something back.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Strange topic.

From my point of view the pro-separation argument sounds a lot like a spoiled kid who wants his agenda to trump the poorer kids. A very selfish point of view if you ask me. Funny how we try to teach our kids to get along and share but as adults we end up looking after our own self interest ahead of everything else. I must lament this degredation of our values.

"3: What do you feel the strongest allegience to? Your country? Your region? Your province? Your city? Your self? How big a role does the allegiance play in your desires for separation?"

Definitely Canada for me. More and more so these days as it becomes clear to me that the majority of Albertans do not share the same values as I do.

"1: Do you believe that the problem with Alberta's role in Canada is linked to any particular party (the liberals), or to the nature of the country? The liberals are often blamed for alienating the west with NEP and such, but in 1980, Clark's minority government came up with a budget that would have been equally devestating to Alberta, had it been put in place--of course, Clark got the non-confidence heave-ho. Given that, do you trust the current conservative party to fairly represent the west?"

I blame it in part on the current political process. The first past the post system ends up reinforcing the regionalism problem with respect to parties. I think proportional representation would help break down this regionalism by allowing the minorities in regions to have a voice.

I trust the Conservatives to look after their powerbase. However I disagree with that notion and their platform and idelogies do not align with my own and therefore they don't represent me.

"4: What do you believe it will take, realistically, for Western Canadians or Albertans to embrace separation? How can Western Canadians become united behind the idea of separation when their first priority is supporting the Conservatives to battle the liberals?"

I don't think there's enough support to even get off the ground in Western Canada. As has been mentioned by others, I don't see any other province in Western Canada wanting to separate besides Alberta and I don't think it would be supported by the majority of Albertans.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by kn+May 2 2005, 03:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kn @ May 2 2005, 03:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

This is a wierd question.

We're in Canada now. You're sitting on it. How do you extract Canada out of Alberta, and then try to identify its contributions? Sounds like we're restarting history.... now!

Not at all. Alberta has been the biggest net contributor in terms of transfer of wealth. It's more than fair for this province to ask for something back.[/b][/quote]
I suppose.


This logic reeks of 'I'm doing great now, so I'll keep the profits!'

I'm sure we'd be singing a different tune if we were a net recipient (but its our hard-work and Albertan-ness that got our economy where it is... right?). I keep thinking that we've hit the jackpot (oil) and now all most people can think of is how to hoard and concentrate the wealth amongst ourselves instead of sharing with those 'foreigners' (the rest of Canada).

The biggest reason I think Western Separatism will never fly is that you can't legitimately base a separatist movement on greed. The largest, single reason Albertans might want to separate is to be better off economically.

I don't get this God-given right to be the richest people in the world. I'm pretty happy living in the top 0.5%... how much more could I need? How much more do you need?

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch+May 2 2005, 03:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaptainCrunch @ May 2 2005, 03:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

How is simply being liberal minded enough? How is that different from not having your voices heard? If you were liberal minded in the new alberta and even in the current one, how is your voice ever heard? The answer I've had to that in the past here is to get out of Alberta if y ou don't like it. Which shows the lunacy of the seperatist whiners in my opinion.
What's this new Alberta going to do about a military too? That's a strong right wing core, a good military. A lot of the posters here would have to be drafted, which I would find hilarious! Have fun.

Why would we need a strong Military, Canada certainly dosen't have one. If we seperated and Canada decided to invade us, we could probably fight them off with a dozen slingshots and a biplane. [/b][/quote]
But why bother with the biplanes and slingshots? We all know how the US likes to protect its oil interests.....anyone remember Kuwait?

This is a kind of silly topic though. What would you name the country if it happened? Especially if BC was to join?

Alumbia? British Berta?

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

This arrived in my email box last week. Sums up the issue nicely I think.

The Rich Kid: Where does Alberta fit into the Canadian family now?

I'm not in favour of separation (pointless IMO) but the cynic in me would love to see a separatist push. Quebecers are the only Canadians, by and large, who actually question our politics and dare to think something could be changed. I might not like the direction of change, but god bless'em for not being sheep.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Tron_fdc+May 2 2005, 04:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Tron_fdc @ May 2 2005, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Why would we need a strong Military, Canada certainly dosen't have one. If we seperated and Canada decided to invade us, we could probably fight them off with a dozen slingshots and a biplane.

But why bother with the biplanes and slingshots? We all know how the US likes to protect its oil interests.....anyone remember Kuwait?

This is a kind of silly topic though. What would you name the country if it happened? Especially if BC was to join?

Alumbia? British Berta? [/b][/quote]
Cascadia?

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by kn+May 2 2005, 09:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kn @ May 2 2005, 09:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

This is a wierd question.

We're in Canada now. You're sitting on it. How do you extract Canada out of Alberta, and then try to identify its contributions? Sounds like we're restarting history.... now!

Not at all. Alberta has been the biggest net contributor in terms of transfer of wealth. It's more than fair for this province to ask for something back. [/b][/quote]
False.

Alberta sees more of its wealth distributed to other provinces per capita, but Ontario is the leader in total amount of dollars flowing out of the province.

Keep that in mind next time you say that the federal government only looks out for Ontario.

[tjinaz]

Hell in this senario...

I think the US would offer Statehood to BC, Alberta, and/or Sask. Think of the increased potential to win the Hockey gold for the US.

Especially Alberta and BC. The US would definitely play ball. They have no choice, through BC is the only viable land route to Alaska.

[Resolute 14]

Doubtful though. I recall a poll about two years ago that put support at Alberta seperating around 6-8%, and support for joining the US at 3%. Besides, it would defeat the purpose.

The biggest problem with our place in Canada is that we have no voice despite having 10% of the nations population. Combined, the West has virtually no voice despite making up a third of the nations population.

To go to the States where Alberta would make up 1% of the population would solve nothing. The only thing that changes is that the national capital that ignores us shifts a couple hundred miles south.

Speaking of miles, screw joining any country that doesnt use the metric system. :P

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by kn+May 2 2005, 03:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kn @ May 2 2005, 03:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

This is a wierd question.

We're in Canada now. You're sitting on it. How do you extract Canada out of Alberta, and then try to identify its contributions? Sounds like we're restarting history.... now!

Not at all. Alberta has been the biggest net contributor in terms of transfer of wealth. It's more than fair for this province to ask for something back. [/b][/quote]
And what the pro-separatists seem to want is to be above democracy and let money (not population) equal power.

Not a great base ideology for starting a new republic on this continent.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by tjinaz@May 2 2005, 01:59 PM
Hell in this senario...

I think the US would offer Statehood to BC, Alberta, and/or Sask. Think of the increased potential to win the Hockey gold for the US.

Especially Alberta and BC. The US would definitely play ball. They have no choice, through BC is the only viable land route to Alaska.

Oh they'd play ball alright, and you can be darn sure they'd be using an aluminum bat.

If Ottawa doesn't care about our concerns how high up the list do you think we'd be on the agenda in Washington?