Liberals Cancel Opposition Day

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by MarchHare+Apr 21 2005, 02:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MarchHare @ Apr 21 2005, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Never once did I say I tolerate fraud and corruption or that it was ok in government. I hope those that were responsible for this scam are brought to justice just as much as anyone else. I, however, do not believe every member of the Liberal Party was involved. In fact, there's pretty good evidence that neither Martin nor any of his senior staff were part of this at all (caveat: this is by no means a definitive statement and final judgement is reserved pending the findings of the Gomery Inquiry). To suggest that all Liberals are crooked because of this makes as little sense as saying all CPC members are radical Christian nutjobs because Stockwell Day is one.

I've given my reasons for not wishing to vote for either the CPC or the NDP. I agree with most of the Liberal platform, and I have serious issues with the policies of the other two major parties.

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Well in your own words:

I'm not the least bit happy about the scandal, but if a few million a year of defrauded tax revenue (which was all likely committed by individuals no longer part of the Martin government) is the cost I must pay to keep the CPC out of power, I'm more than willing to accept that.

So you are unhappy about the scandal, but the millions stolen as a result of the scandal are okay? Interesting...

And I respect the fact you don't like other parties platforms or that the Liberals platform is the one you agree with most. I guess when I see evidence of corrupt government I will either turn to another party, or abstain from voting and it would appear as though we disagree on this point.

Originally posted by MarchHare@

Your allegory created an extremely contrived scenario and didn't fit this situation.# First, the Liberal Party is not one employee.# In your analogy, it's like I discovered that the guy who quit two years ago had been embezzeling money from the company's account, so I should fire his brother who wasn't involved because of it (same caveat as above).# Second, you suggest that I'm "scared to hire someone else", but if I was really looking to hire someone, I'd have my choice of dozens of applicants.# In the Canadian political scheme, I have my choice of two others, both of which I have serious concerns with.

The Party as a whole represents one single entity that is designed to serve the citizens of Canada though. In that sense, it is a 'single employee' that is still working. Now obviously the Party itself is made up of many members, some of which remain and some of which have left in the past few years. Same Liberal Party though. What's to prevent this from occuring again? Who says it already hasn't/isn't? Also, 'too scared to hire someone else' can refer to an abstained vote too, you know. I am also curious that individual statements, nothing more than talk, by former Alliance members implicates the entire CPC, but illegal actions by Liberal officials a few years back (and maybe by some current members) don't implicate the Liberals in any way.

Anyways, i'm now further troubled by your notion that whatever further revelations coming out of the Gomery inquiry implicating former Liberals and those with ties to the party are okay as those people are gone. So now the Liberals stealing a few million dollars is acceptable, along with the fact that if certain members get out before they're caught, that is also okay for the Liberals? These people were formerly part of the Party, but they're now gone (some only a year or two ago), so the Party itself is clean. Keep in mind, it's not like this occured 50 years ago.

So let me ask you then who should pay the price for this? Who should be held accountable? Certainly not the Liberals according to you, the Party itself is off the hook. Former members of the party though? Former PM Chretien? What about Martin and the testimonials starting to come out that he knew about this all along? He seems like a rather high ranking current Liberal official.


<!--QuoteBegin-MarchHare

This site credits the original source as the January 22, 2001 issue of Report Newsmagazine.# I found what I think is the article here, but unfortunately I have to register to read it all, so I didn't bother.# Do you doubt that the quote is accurate?# It's on the record that Mr. Harper was asked to clarify what he meant by that comment during a session of Parliament.# Here's the transcript: http://www.parl.gc.ca/PDF/37/3/parlbus/cha...es/Han048-E.PDF
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No, I certainly don't doubt it's authenticy. I just read a few things about it that made me curious. Thanks for going to the trouble to locate the sources for it...

[MarchHare]

Anyways, i'm now further troubled by your notion that whatever further revelations coming out of the Gomery inquiry implicating former Liberals and those with ties to the party are okay as those people are gone. So now the Liberals stealing a few million dollars is acceptable, along with the fact that if certain members get out before they're caught, that is also okay for the Liberals? These people were formerly part of the Party, but they're now gone (some only a year or two ago), so the Party itself is clean. Keep in mind, it's not like this occured 50 years ago.

Whoa now, let's not get ahead of ourselves. If former members of the party that were involved in defrauding Canadian tax payers, I wish to see those individuals punished. That applies equally to any current members who may be involved. I also wish to see the Liberal Party repay any ill-gotten funds that may have been sent their way as kickbacks and extra punative damages too. Where I stop short, though, is blaming the entire party itself for actions by what appears to be a small group of now-departed individuals. If the Gomery Report implicates Martin as a key player in this, I would expect him to resign and face criminal investigation along with the rest of those involved. As I said though, unlike many here who already despise the Liberals, I'm not about to judge the guilt of any present or past member of the Party until all the facts are known.

So let me ask you then who should pay the price for this? Who should be held accountable? Certainly not the Liberals according to you, the Party itself is off the hook. Former members of the party though? Former PM Chretien? What about Martin and the testimonials starting to come out that he knew about this all along? He seems like a rather high ranking current Liberal official.

See above. Anyone who was personally involved is to be held accountable whether they be past or current members of the Liberals, the PQ, or any of the advertising firms involved. I don't believe the Liberal Party itself is responsible, especially if the Gomery Report reveals that nobody who is presently in Parliament contributed to this. I don't judge the entire Conservative Party because of the words and actions of Stockwell Day and his ilk (although one is forced to wonder why some of the more outlandish remarks by CPC members are not met with swift rebukes by party leadership), nor do I judge the entire Liberal Party because of the actions of a few bad apples who are likely not even in power anymore (insert usual disclaimer about waiting for the final word form Gomery, etc.).

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Apr 21 2005, 03:19 PM

Whoa now, let's not get ahead of ourselves. If former members of the party that were involved in defrauding Canadian tax payers, I wish to see those individuals punished. That applies equally to any current members who may be involved. I also wish to see the Liberal Party repay any ill-gotten funds that may have been sent their way as kickbacks and extra punative damages too. Where I stop short, though, is blaming the entire party itself for actions by what appears to be a small group of now-departed individuals. If the Gomery Report implicates Martin as a key player in this, I would expect him to resign and face criminal investigation along with the rest of those involved. As I said though, unlike many here who already despise the Liberals, I'm not about to judge the guilt of any present or past member of the Party until all the facts are known.

See above. Anyone who was personally involved is to be held accountable whether they be past or current members of the Liberals, the PQ, or any of the advertising firms involved. I don't believe the Liberal Party itself is responsible, especially if the Gomery Report reveals that nobody who is presently in Parliament contributed to this. I don't judge the entire Conservative Party because of the words and actions of Stockwell Day and his ilk (although one is forced to wonder why some of the more outlandish remarks by CPC members are not met with swift rebukes by party leadership), nor do I judge the entire Liberal Party because of the actions of a few bad apples who are likely not even in power anymore (insert usual disclaimer about waiting for the final word form Gomery, etc.).

Well I agree, I hope any former and/or current members are nailed to the wall for this. I guess we disagree in the sense that I also hope (and am overjoyed to see) the party itself will be nailed to the wall as well. All members involved represent and makeup the Liberal Party, and therefore, the Party is also accountable for it's actions. It's like hockey: someone takes a penalty and the whole team pays the price, this is how I see it in this case. When it comes to corruption in government that results in millions of dollars lost and a multi-million dollar inquiry to find out just what the hell happened, the whole party is to blame in my eyes. This wasn't a random backbencher MP who stole a few thousand dollars, this was senior Liberal officials stealing millions.

A decade+ of a majority government appears to have bread alot of arrogrance and complacency within that thing you call a political party, as they know people like you will continue to put them in power no matter what. Before, I wanted a change in government as I felt the Liberal Party was arrogant, wasteful and incompetant. Now we can add corrupt to that already great list of qualities we hope not to find in the party that governs Canada.

I can see there is really no point in debating this with you anymore as you will not hold the Party itself accountable for the actions of many of it's senior members, and you also said yourself a few million dollars in stolen money doesn't bother you. I just pray you're from Calgary so your vote for the Liberals does nothing more than give them a couple bucks they hopefully wont try and steal...