Libya headed for civil war? Update: Gadhafi dead

[Pinner]

I guess we'll find out in a couple weeks.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I don't agree, if the majority vote for a theocracy every 4 or 5 years it is by definition a democracy, granted a theocracy isn't likey to go back to the voters once in, but that doesn't alter the concept of a democratic theocracy, democracy doesn't ensure a constitution just a vote.

No it's not by definition a democracy. A democracy by definition has to protect basic civil rights. Having an election is not enough.

If the majority elects every 4-5 years to take away civil rights (in this case freedom of religion) that is mob rule. Not a democracy. Not even close.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

No it's not by definition a democracy. A democracy by definition has to protect basic civil rights. Having an election is not enough.

If the majority elects every 4-5 years to take away civil rights (in this case freedom of religion) that is mob rule. Not a democracy. Not even close.

democracy is defined as no more than goverment by the majority through the means of enfranchisement, the definition of basic civil rights is up for negotiation after that, the UK has a state religeon protected in law, it has no constitutional rights, no constitution even, and yet it is a democracy.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

democracy is defined as no more than goverment by the majority through the means of enfranchisement, the definition of basic civil rights is up for negotiation after that, the UK has a state religeon protected in law, it has no constitutional rights, no constitution even, and yet it is a democracy.

In the modern context of the word 'democracy', a single vote allowing for a potentially permanent theocracy is not a 'democratic' government... more like a one-time or repeating referendum.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

In the modern context of the word 'democracy', a single vote allowing for a potentially permanent theocracy is not a 'democratic' government... more like a one-time or repeating referendum.

I would agree if the theocracy then got rid of voting once it was in, but assuming it allowed ongoing voting and free political parties I don't see a theocracy banning other religions being any more undemocratic than a goverment that bans pot.

[CaptainCrunch]

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing.
Those who count the votes decide everything."

Stalin

"Either the world will be ruled according to the ideas of our modern democracy, or the world will be dominated according to the natural law of force; in the latter case the people of brute force will be victorious."


Hitler

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

democracy is defined as no more than goverment by the majority through the means of enfranchisement, the definition of basic civil rights is up for negotiation after that, the UK has a state religeon protected in law, it has no constitutional rights, no constitution even, and yet it is a democracy.

Where are you getting this definition from? Democracy is an extremely complex political concept that you cannot sum up in a sentence definition. Furthermore, the "tyranny of the majority" is a basic concept in any discussion of democracy. You cannot have a democracy with "tyranny of the majority" aka mob rule.

Yes the definition of basic civil rights is up for discussion, but it always includes freedom of religion. People in a democracy have to be free to think what they want, which includes freedom of religion.

There is also a difference between a state religion and a theocracy. No true democracy exists. It's not possible; democracy is a concept. The closer you get to a theocracy the furhter away from a democracy you move. So having a state religion moves you further from being a true democracy, but most countries have them for practical (ex. what days to declare holidays) and historical reasons.

The closer a state moves towards a thoecracy the more it discriminate against those with differing religious views from the state. This is in direct confrontation with the basic ideas behind democracy and civil rights. Both designed to guarantee equality and freedom.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I would agree if the theocracy then got rid of voting once it was in, but assuming it allowed ongoing voting and free political parties I don't see a theocracy banning other religions being any more undemocratic than a goverment that bans pot.

Banning pot is also undemocratic. It is done for social policy reasons.

Banning other religions entirely is, however, a much larger infringement on democracy. It involves controlling the way people think and the way they act in their own homes. Once the other religions are banned, how do you access the freedom of ideas required for further elections and elected different parties in the future?

[T@T]

End is very near for Gadhafi

The U.S. government suspended operations at its embassy in Libya Friday and announced sanctions against the regime of Col. Moammar Gadhafi.
The American Embassy has been "shuttered," White House Press Secretary Jay Carney announced. President Barack Obama will push both unilateral and multilateral sanctions, he added.
In addition, Washington will use the "full extent" of its intelligence capabilities to monitor Gadhafi's regime and gather evidence of atrocities committed against the Libyan people.

The Treasury Department advised banks to monitor accounts held by the regime's key political figures and to report financial transactions "that could potentially represent misappropriated or diverted state assets," according to a government statement.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa...ex.html?hpt=T1

Gadhafi is forked, gone in 48 hours I would say.

[CaptainCrunch]

Why would he care about sanctions. Any money that he's gathered is long out of the country laundered and well hidden.

I'll guarantee you, this guy sees himself as a modern day Tamerlane, he'll fight literally to the last man, and he probably wants to die a martry

[burn_this_city]

I'm with the Captain, the anti-government forces will slowly push into Tripoli. Its going to be bloody unless someone in his regime knocks him off.

[Pinner]

The Swiss banks froze his accounts but I'm sure all his eggs aren't in one basket.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Pinner

The Swiss banks froze his accounts but I'm sure all his eggs aren't in one basket.

These guys are pretty cagey about hiding their money. If someone has 30 billion dollars in cash, you might find and freeze a whack of it, but their golden parchute even at a couple of billion is good enough.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by T@T

End is very near for Gadhafi

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa...ex.html?hpt=T1

Gadhafi is forked, gone in 48 hours I would say.

One of his former ministers said Gadhafi would have no reservations about using his WMD's as a last resort. Let's hope he doesn't get that bat-##### crazy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

One of his former ministers said Gadhafi would have no reservations about using his WMD's as a last resort. Let's hope he doesn't get that bat-##### crazy.

To give the nutcase his due, he was pretty open about his deactivation of all of his WMD projects, including chemical and biological agents in 2003. Any nerve gas that he might have left probably went inert years ago.

However I'm not including non lethal gases in the mix.

[Pinner]

Gadhafi has 10 tons of mustard gas in small canisters. CNN felt the need to broadcast exactly where it is, explained how to detonate it and pointed out, without guards present it would be very easy to steal.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I wonder how much many Western Capitalist countries really want lasting democracy in that part of the world. Our lifestyles, quality of life and security depend on favourable dealings with leaders in that part of the world. It is usually easier to appeal to one person with absolute power, either through force or persuasion (ie. "aid"), than it is to appeal to a government that has to bow to the whim of the people.

I know most of us truely want what is best for Libyans, Egyptians, Bahrainians, etc..., but I bet many of our leaders are saying; "Oh snap!", behind the scenes.

Case in point ... the Lockerbie bomber release. The biggest mass murderer in British history is released on "compassionate" grounds.

The British Ambassador expressed relief that Megrahi likely would be returned to Libya under the compassionate release program. He noted that a refusal of Megrahi's request could have had disastrous implications for British interests in Libya. "They could have cut us off at the knees,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-e...cuments/220992

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ie-bomber.html

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Pinner

Gadhafi has 10 tons of mustard gas in small canisters. CNN felt the need to broadcast exactly where it is, explained how to detonate it and pointed out, without guards present it would be very easy to steal.

Mustard Gas has a shelf life of maybe 10 years, I'm willing to be that his 10 tons has been sitting on a shelf for a lot longer then that.

It also contravenes the information that Ghadaffi opened up his stockpiles to inspection and destruction in 2003 so that he could rejoin the international community.

[afc wimbledon]

Thus far the skilled elements of the libyan military have proved unwilling to assist him in his genocidal plans, I doubt his hired mercenaries have the skill sets to use gas shells.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Thus far the skilled elements of the libyan military have proved unwilling to assist him in his genocidal plans, I doubt his hired mercenaries have the skill sets to use gas shells.

Libya's military has been broken for a while. I have to admit I'm surprised that the mercenaries have stuck around this long, I mean whats the good of having a big paycheck if you're not around to cash it?