ATDHE.net domain seized by Homeland Security

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by valo403

Right, so in order to grow the game you adopt a model that will almost surely bankrupt the league. Seems like an intelligent decision.

No actually, I like your idea better. Let's squeeze what we can from the existing market and let's hope they renew their subscription every year. Who cares about long term plan of growing the market.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by octothorp

The live sports distribution models that are out there need to change, and a site like atdhe, even if it's illegal, can help to drive that change in the same way that napster drove change in the music industry or that torrent sites continue to drive change in the movie industry. The distribution models that came out of these movements were driven by user choices: I can now go on iTunes, and for $.99, download any track I want in seconds, at high quality. They've essentially made a model that is more convenient than attempting to download the track illegally, without being prohibitively expensive.

Right now, the NHL's distribution model is expensive and inconvenient. Make it inexpensive and convenient, and people will pay.

Is it really that expensive and inconvenient though? Right now, I can plop down on my couch and watch any game played this season at the touch of a button for $200. Even if I just watch Flames games I'm paying $2.44/game, that's hardly expensive, and I don't know how it's possible for things to be more convenient.

Potentially the price could be lower, maybe the NHL's profit margin is too large and overall gains could be increased by dropping the price slightly.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

No actually, I like your idea better. Let's squeeze what we can from the existing market and let's hope they renew their subscription every year. Who cares about long term plan of growing the market.

What market? Under your plan the league is dead in a couple years anyways. Are we growing the market for the next version of the WHA?

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by valo403

What market? Under your plan the league is dead in a couple years anyways. Are we growing the market for the next version of the WHA?

Are you suggesting that NHL will go bankrupt if they got rid of center ice?

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by valo403

Is it really that expensive and inconvenient though? Right now, I can plop down on my couch and watch any game played this season at the touch of a button for $200. Even if I just watch Flames games I'm paying $2.44/game, that's hardly expensive, and I don't know how it's possible for things to be more convenient.

Potentially the price could be lower, maybe the NHL's profit margin is too large and overall gains could be increased by dropping the price slightly.

Yes it is that expensive and that inconvenient.
$200 isn't spare change for everyone.
Clicking an illegal link is a lot more convenient and cheaper than gamecenter and a lot of people will watch illegal streams for these reasons. For once, CBC did something right by streaming the games online and it is as convinient as watching an illegal stream while it provides higher quality stream. This allows CBC to keep track of how many users are watching the game online and they can use this as a bargaining chip next time they have to negotiate with advertisers.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by valo403

First of all, referring to something that costs $200/year as a luxury is laughable. It's not a luxury, it's pretty damn affordable.

Greenteawhatever described it as a luxury, so I continued along that line of thinking. I don't personally see it as a luxury.

As for the desirability of the market segment, you're the one who put them out there as a group that can't afford $200/year, but now they have parents that can buy them things and will all be wealthy next year? Which one is it? Either it's a group with disposable income that is desirable to advertisers or it's a group that can't afford to drop $200.

What? It is quite clearly both. Today, university students may not have the income to pay for CI, but tomorrow they will. Not only that, but they have relatives that do have disposable income. When I was 13, I didn't have the money to buy a Flames jersey, yet my parents got me one for Christmas. This isn't a difficult concept, really. Not only that, but you aren't considering the university student mindset either. Personally, I could afford Center Ice when I lived off campus with some house mates, but why would I pay for something when I could get it for free online? Sure, you may think this is wrong and for all intents and purposes, you are absolutely right. My point is, however, that there is a generation of consumers that are increasingly thinking this way, so it might be prudent to see if there is someway to take advantage of it.

I don't disagree with the idea that marketing needs to adapt to the changes brought about by technology, but giving away your product isn't the answer, especially if the impetus is the fact they're going to steal it anyways. How does that help you? All you've done is legitamize the theft, make it free and they watch legitimately and you have no revenue stream outside of a possible marginal bump in ad sales. Keep the current model and you retain the pay-per-view revenue stream without losing any of the exposure you pointed out as being so important because those kids are still watching, just on a bootleg feed.

Obviously there has to be a business model in place here that works. If it isn't financially viable, then it is not something that you follow through with. Personally, I think that it can be done. Not only that, but I think it is something that needs to be done eventually.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by valo403

Is it really that expensive and inconvenient though? Right now, I can plop down on my couch and watch any game played this season at the touch of a button for $200. Even if I just watch Flames games I'm paying $2.44/game, that's hardly expensive, and I don't know how it's possible for things to be more convenient.

Maybe this is the case for you, but clearly not for everyone. I can't tell you how many times there has been a hockey game that I get with my basic cable package for free, yet I choose to stream it online instead. Why? Maybe I am at the library and can't come home and "plop down on my couch". Maybe my housemates, who are avid basketball and football fans got to the television before me to watch another sport. Maybe I like to watch the game on my computer while I post on CP about it. Heck, one year I lived in a house where the other guys didn't even want to pay for basic cable. Am I supposed to foot the bill entirely while they get to watch for free? It seems like you believe that every consumer is exactly like you when that simply isn't the case.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by valo403

Is it really that expensive and inconvenient though? Right now, I can plop down on my couch and watch any game played this season at the touch of a button for $200. Even if I just watch Flames games I'm paying $2.44/game, that's hardly expensive, and I don't know how it's possible for things to be more convenient.

Potentially the price could be lower, maybe the NHL's profit margin is too large and overall gains could be increased by dropping the price slightly.

It's much easier to convince people to buy a lot of impulse-driven inexpensive things than one commitment-driven expensive thing, even if there's better value in the one expensive thing. There's always going to be a market for a service like Center Ice (particularly people who are fans of out-of-market teams), but there's a massive potential audience out there for whom Center Ice makes zero sense.
Early in the season, I have next to no interest in watching non Flames games, unless it's an interesting matchup and it's easily available. But at this point in the season, yeah, I'd pay a couple bucks to watch a LA/Nashville game, because it's relevant to the Flames. But there's no way I'm going to be sitting on my couch in September, thinking "hey, I'll plunk down $200 now, in case I feel like watching out-of-market games five months from now."

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

The reason why NHL is having problem with advertising is because the hockey market is very small compared to other major sports league.

And it always will be! Even other sports have these types of channels, NFL Sunday Ticket, MLB Extra Innings & NBA League Pass. So explain to me why it's okay with their business model but not for the NHL?

Are MLB, NFL and NBA not trying to grow their fan base?

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Greenteawhatever described it as a luxury, so I continued along that line of thinking. I don't personally see it as a luxury.

So it's a necessity then?

What? It is quite clearly both. Today, university students may not have the income to pay for CI, but tomorrow they will. Not only that, but they have relatives that do have disposable income. When I was 13, I didn't have the money to buy a Flames jersey, yet my parents got me one for Christmas. This isn't a difficult concept, really. Not only that, but you aren't considering the university student mindset either. Personally, I could afford Center Ice when I lived off campus with some house mates, but why would I pay for something when I could get it for free online? Sure, you may think this is wrong and for all intents and purposes, you are absolutely right. My point is, however, that there is a generation of consumers that are increasingly thinking this way, so it might be prudent to see if there is someway to take advantage of it.

So much stupid.

If you have relatives who can buy things for you, get them to pay for your Center Ice package.

And if you start giving the package away for free then they'll expect for free forever.

And if you're trying to hook casual fans wouldn't the national broadcasts on CBC/TSN/Versus/ NBC along with the regional broadcasts do that? Why would a casual fan want access to games that only a hardcore fan would care about?

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by HOOT

And it always will be! Even other sports have these types of channels, NFL Sunday Ticket, MLB Extra Innings & NBA League Pass. So explain to me why it's okay with their business model but not for the NHL?

Are MLB, NFL and NBA not trying to grow their fan base?

I'm not saying any business model is wrong here. At some point, each of those leagues including NHL will have to do something about piracy. They can try to use online streaming to benefit their business (and reduce piracy. If NHL offered free stream with advertisements, which has a better quality than the illegal streams, who's going to use the illegal stream?) or they could keep contacting the Homeland security to play cat and mouse with the pirates.

Just like how NHL is being stubborn with keeping the teams in Phoenix, Atlanta, and so on, while losing millions, it's ultimately their business model, but that doesn't make it the best option out there.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

I'm not saying any business model is wrong here. At some point, each of those leagues including NHL will have to do something about piracy. They can try to use online streaming to benefit their business (and reduce piracy. If NHL offered free stream with advertisements, which has a better quality than the illegal streams, who's going to use the illegal stream?) or they could keep contacting the Homeland security to play cat and mouse with the pirates.

Do you really think it's the NHL that's driving Homeland Security to shut down websites?

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

So much stupid.

What is stupid?

If you have relatives who can buy things for you, get them to pay for your Center Ice package.

Doesn't mean that they will buy everything for you.

And if you start giving the package away for free then they'll expect for free forever.

I'm suggesting that they stream lives games for free on NHL.com. Not sure what the heck you are talking about.

And if you're trying to hook casual fans wouldn't the national broadcasts on CBC/TSN/Versus/ NBC along with the regional broadcasts do that? Why would a casual fan want access to games that only a hardcore fan would care about?

Try following the Flames through only CBC/TSN/Versus/NBC. Maybe you'll get lucky and get to watch 20 games a year. Most people that weren't born in hockey families start out as casual fans. From there, they become hardcore fans. If you don't mind watching the Flames, how likely is it that you become a hardcore fan when you only get to watch them once every two weeks (if you are lucky)? I get that you are old and don't understand that there are consumers different from you, but come on man. Seems like you are being deliberately obtuse here.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

And if you're trying to hook casual fans wouldn't the national broadcasts on CBC/TSN/Versus/ NBC along with the regional broadcasts do that? Why would a casual fan want access to games that only a hardcore fan would care about?

See, this is exactly the wrong sort of thinking: that viewers can be divided into two categories: casual fans who are happy to see whatever games get thrown their way through their cable packages; or hard-core fans who will pay $200 for a selection of out-of-market games.
Modern distribution models need to be about user-choice; every fan has different reasons for making their selections about what games they want to watch. Maybe it's the person who wants to watch in-market games on their computer because they don't have a TV available; the guy who wants to watch his home team while he's travelling; the guy who wants to watch a few out-of-market games that have significant implications for his home team; the fan who watches all the in-market games, but wants to re-watch one particularly fantastic game; the fan who's watching a game at home, is interrupted, doesn't have PVR, and wants to watch the end of the game. I could go on, there are literally dozens of scenarios for why fans would want a pay-per-usage, web-accessible distribution model.

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Do you really think it's the NHL that's driving Homeland Security to shut down websites?

Wow jump to conclusion much?
Explain where I said "it's the NHL that's driving Homeland security to shut down website."

NHL obviously isn't happy about the piracy, and considering how they used to threaten pirating sites with lawsuits, they are one of many businesses that are putting pressure on the authorities to go after pirating sites.

Do you honestly think Homeland security will be wasting their time playing cat and mouse with the pirates, practially an unwinnable war, if the major businesses (such as the music industry) wasn't putting pressure on them?

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

They can try to use online streaming to benefit their business (and reduce piracy. If NHL offered free stream with advertisements, which has a better quality than the illegal streams, who's going to use the illegal stream?) or they could keep contacting the Homeland security to play cat and mouse with the pirates.

Or they can continue to offer up a premium service for $200/year (54 cents/day) to those who want higher quality product. I'd pay about $500 to watch NHLCI/GC compared to that crap that is illegally streamed.

Anyone who doesn't think that the $0.50/day is worth it has never actually used it. It's an amazing product and because they have revenue coming from it they continue to improve the product. If you want free streaming go find an illegal site and enjoy the squinting.

NHLGC isn't all about live games either. You can go back years and years to watch games. They even have the option to watch games from the 80's and 90's (or at least they did in the summer).

Even if I was a starving student I'd take one less trip to Starbucks every day or save my pennies!

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by octothorp

See, this is exactly the wrong sort of thinking: that viewers can be divided into two categories: casual fans who are happy to see whatever games get thrown their way through their cable packages; or hard-core fans who will pay $200 for a selection of out-of-market games.
Modern distribution models need to be about user-choice; every fan has different reasons for making their selections about what games they want to watch. Maybe it's the person who wants to watch in-market games on their computer because they don't have a TV available; the guy who wants to watch his home team while he's travelling; the guy who wants to watch a few out-of-market games that have significant implications for his home team; the fan who watches all the in-market games, but wants to re-watch one particularly fantastic game; the fan who's watching a game at home, is interrupted, doesn't have PVR, and wants to watch the end of the game. I could go on, there are literally dozens of scenarios for why fans would want a pay-per-usage, web-accessible distribution model.

Exactly. As a student, I'm in Ontario half the time and Calgary, the other half. And at home, I don't own an HD tv so it makes sense for me to subscribe to game center (although it's hard to justify $200 purchase as a student). Although they black out the games in Calgary but I can work around that using a VPN. Given the cost and the inconvinience, a lot of other people will just watch an illegal stream.

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Or they can continue to offer up a premium service for $200/year (54 cents/day) to those who want higher quality product. I'd pay about $500 to watch NHLCI/GC compared to that crap that is illegally streamed.

Anyone who doesn't think that the $0.50/day is worth it has never actually used it. It's an amazing product and because they have revenue coming from it they continue to improve the product. If you want free streaming go find an illegal site and enjoy the squinting.

NHLGC isn't all about live games either. You can go back years and years to watch games. They even have the option to watch games from the 80's and 90's (or at least they did in the summer).

Even if I was a starving student I'd take one less trip to Starbucks every day or save my pennies!

I like the quality of the GC stream and it makes sense for me to get it. But what about a casual fan. What if they only had time to watch 20 games a year? Should they still get $200 game center? Or should they not watch any games at all. They're obviously going to use illegal stream if that was the case.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Looks like its back up on another domain. Still, apparently it was an EU hosted server(which people didn't think could be seized) but I think Homeland can seize any .com or .net domain, regardless of serving location.

They didn't seize the site. They just redirected it to their own landing page.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

I didn't think ATDHE hosted anything? They're still allowed to seize domains in that case?

The law is written in such a way that they can do this with proper judicial review.

Its hilarious.