The Blue Jays Thread.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by browna

Hasn't that been the story of the Blue Jays for about 10 years now...since back in the Clemens/Hentgen days?

Yes but I do think that pitching is much harder to find than bats. Right now the Jays have a stating rotation that is pretty much set for next year. Add to that the performance of the bullpens and emergence of guys like Accardo, Janssen and even a guy like Wolfe of late. With a returning Ryan that is a nice looking bull pen.

Even back in the days of Clemons/Hengten the pitching staff still had some glaring holes. E.g. Randy Myers as the closer and the disaster that was.

But heading into next year the pitching staff looks great - just a matter of either hoping some guys rebound, or changing up the bats a bit.

Also for next year - does Johnny Mac come back as the everyday SS? I hope so. Man I enjoy watching him play.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by browna

Hasn't that been the story of the Blue Jays for about 10 years now...since back in the Clemens/Hentgen days?

Jays pitching IMO has been very inconsistant over the last 10 or so years, really since Clemens left. I mean Halladay has always been the Ace the last couple years, but we had people like Loizia, Carpenter, Escobar, who were quite frankly pretty terrible when they wore our uniform. 2 years ago we say freak final halves of the season from Downs & Towers, but that simply wasn't ment to be.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Jays pitching IMO has been very inconsistant over the last 10 or so years, really since Clemens left. I mean Halladay has always been the Ace the last couple years, but we had people like Loizia, Carpenter, Escobar, who were quite frankly pretty terrible when they wore our uniform. 2 years ago we say freak final halves of the season from Downs & Towers, but that simply wasn't ment to be.

Yeah, I do wonder with guys like Marcum and Litsch in particular who are finesse pitchers if they'll have some type of regression next year. McGowan is a guy who I think has the stuff that it shouldn't be as big an issue, and I think Marcum has pitched enough innings reasonably consistantly to be a lower risk. But it does seem that one year these guys have a good half, and the next year...they show that they can't do it for another half season let alone full season.

[Jiggy_12]

Could the Jays have contended for the WC? Absolutely. It has come to to injuruies (Partly) and coaching (mostly).

6 of our 1 run losses, turn those into wins and were are virtually tied for the wildcard lead. Easily in 6 of those games, a bunt here, a stolen base there, a sacrifice fly...situational hitting..anything like that would have helped win games.

The Jays don't do situational hitting, they relied on base hits and homeruns all season. which this season, were very hard to come by. I almost fully blame Gibbons for where the Jays sit.

edit: lol, tonight was an anomoly. they did great situational hitting. but the season as a whole? bleh.

[Jiggy_12]

McDonald is ridiculous. No out was made on the play, but had there been....play of the year in my books. He dove to his right on a ball stung by Crawford, caught it, and basically from his side, pushed himself up just enough to make the throw from an almost horizontal position. throw was right on the money, and Crawford - the fastest player in baseball...beat it out by 1 step.

Any other runner on the D-rays and thats an out, and play of the year. Holy crap.

They showed Burnetts reaction from the mound, and even though he didnt get the out gave McDonald props. You could see him mouth "wow".

2-1 Jays top of 7.

[JiriHrdina]

oops!

[Scrambler]

Lol, nice closer Jays.

[Jiggy_12]

f'ing christ.

[browna]

Get a haircut Accardo.
2 2 run shots in the 9th with a walk in between, leading Tampa to a 5-4 win.

[KTown]

what a joke, I refuse to watch this team anymore they make me too angry, there MOD EDIT:Watch the language please.

[ricoFlame]

oof, what an awful loss. jeez, that's ugly.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

Could the Jays have contended for the WC? Absolutely. It has come to to injuruies (Partly) and coaching (mostly).

6 of our 1 run losses, turn those into wins and were are virtually tied for the wildcard lead. Easily in 6 of those games, a bunt here, a stolen base there, a sacrifice fly...situational hitting..anything like that would have helped win games.

The Jays don't do situational hitting, they relied on base hits and homeruns all season. which this season, were very hard to come by. I almost fully blame Gibbons for where the Jays sit.

edit: lol, tonight was an anomoly. they did great situational hitting. but the season as a whole? bleh.

What happens when that bunt there, stolen base, and sac fly turn a potential 3-run inning into a 1-run inning and we lose by 1 or 2?

The whole reason the Jays don't play small ball is because statistical analysis shows that while it may increase your chances of scoring one run it significantly reduces your chances of scoring anything more. Analysis also shows that even late in the game sac bunts are only valuable (in terms of producing a tying or winning run) if weak hitters are at the plate (like John McDonald who had a sac tonight).

Small ball and stats like RISP are so over-rated it's hilarious.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by JayP

What happens when that bunt there, stolen base, and sac fly turn a potential 3-run inning into a 1-run inning and we lose by 1 or 2?

The whole reason the Jays don't play small ball is because statistical analysis shows that while it may increase your chances of scoring one run it significantly reduces your chances of scoring anything more. Analysis also shows that even late in the game sac bunts are only valuable (in terms of producing a tying or winning run) if weak hitters are at the plate (like John McDonald who had a sac tonight).

Small ball and stats like RISP are so over-rated it's hilarious.

So first place teams like the Angels and Red Sox, who steal bases and bunt far more often than the Jays are using the wrong philosophy?

I would agree that with the Jays lineup on paper, we shouldnt be playing small ball. But after watching the offense struggle all year, you don't think it might be time to try something different?

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by JayP

Small ball and stats like RISP are so over-rated it's hilarious.

Maybe so....but I've seen too many times where Gregg Zaun and Reed Johnson were allowed to swing the bat with a guy on first and none out and they hit into double plays type of thing. Theres a time to go for three run innings and a time where you try to give your real hitters a chance to get something going. Too often the Jays let their light hitters basically take them out of innings. IMO relying on 230 hitters to make every inning a three run inning isn't that smart.

[habernac]

put me in the "I think they need to play more small ball" camp.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Maybe so....but I've seen too many times where Gregg Zaun and Reed Johnson were allowed to swing the bat with a guy on first and none out and they hit into double plays type of thing. Theres a time to go for three run innings and a time where you try to give your real hitters a chance to get something going. Too often the Jays let their light hitters basically take them out of innings. IMO relying on 230 hitters to make every inning a three run inning isn't that smart.

Dunno about that situation (I do like Reed bunting tho)... mostly because Jmac is hitting behind Zaun, and I wouldn't count on him for the big RBI. Ideally Zaun would take a walk, and then McDonald would bunt (in a perfect world).

I do agree with the assessment Gibbons is deserving of a lot of the blame this season - leading off with Matt Stairs or having him hit 2nd is a terrible idea. Get some guys with decent OBPs in front of him and have him hit 3rd or 4th (probably 4th behind Rios), lineup construction has absolutely killed us this year with some extremely poor decisions. Your best hitter isn't hitting where he should. It was about time he wised up and got Rios down out of the leadoff spot.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by habernac

put me in the "I think they need to play more small ball" camp.

i hear that. when you're not moving guys around and trying to manufacture runs too much is left for the power guys to make up, and power guys are typically way too streaky to rely on for the whole year.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

So first place teams like the Angels and Red Sox, who steal bases and bunt far more often than the Jays are using the wrong philosophy?

Because they haven't had several of their better hitters completely the bed all season. If Vernon Wells and Troy Glaus (and to a lesser extent Lyle Overbay and Reed Johnson) were even slightly above average (from what was expected from them) the Jays would be leading the Wild Card race.

It's hilarious that people blame irrelevant crap like bunting and not important things like hitting the freaking ball.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by JayP

It's hilarious that people blame irrelevant crap like bunting and not important things like hitting the freaking ball.

I don't blame the entire thing on not bunting....Hell the whole lineup except Rios and Stairs and maybe Thomas and Hill have underachieved....and done so in a terrible way. Fact is the lineup is poorly constructed without any type of leadoff hitter and had two guys who were every day players from the start who could hit left handed, and than you end up with about 3 guys who seem to be your easy out or guaranteed double play guy. But fact is the hitters themselves have hit poorly in situations all year. How many times was a guy on third with less than two outs and the guy would hit a weak infield pop up. Or guy on second to lead off the inning and the next guy would hit that weak little pop fly to second base. Good teams execute in those situations, bad teams don't. Hell if the Jays situational hitting was on....chances are they were probably hitting the ball better too. IMO the manger has been medicore at best and the GM also should be questioned on this team.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by JayP

Because they haven't had several of their better hitters completely the bed all season. If Vernon Wells and Troy Glaus (and to a lesser extent Lyle Overbay and Reed Johnson) were even slightly above average (from what was expected from them) the Jays would be leading the Wild Card race.

It's hilarious that people blame irrelevant crap like bunting and not important things like hitting the freaking ball.

Thats what I'm saying. But instead of Gibbons reacting to that and trying to come up with other ways to score runs, he lets them sh*t the bed.