Brad Treliving needs to go

[united]

While I have been pretty tough on Treliving for his brain-dead moves of which I view as inexcusable given the information available at the times, one piece that gives me some guarded optimism is I have been given reason to believe Chris Snow's promotion to assistant GM two off-seasons ago was significantly based on his strong advocacy against what ended up being Treliving's largest blunders (to date) - as anyone with a rudimentary understanding of analytics or competence in economics would have done. I digress. Snow's track record has finally been given more recognition internally and his promotion was well deserved.

Like any team, Snow's voice is that of one stakeholder and it is up to management to figure out how much weight to give each respective voice which is an ever-evolving evaluation.

So while Snow no doubt voiced strong concern with signing Bouma, Brouwer, Stone (both times), and Neal to their respective ludicrous contracts; voiced concern with the trades for Lazar and Hamonic; and questioned burning draft picks on hopeless pet-project prospects like Bruce, Mattson, Fischer, Koumontzis, and Nodler; ultimately his voice at the time wasn't weighed strongly enough to avoid the disasters.

To be fair, while most credible fans and analysts heavily panned the Brouwer and Neal signings as having little chance of living up to either dollar or term, few could have seen them failing quite as badly as they did, as soon as they did. Unfortunately the same can't be said of the Lazar trade and those draft picks, all of which never had even a slight chance of success. It's a learning Process, right?

I also have on good authority the Flames started using one of Idriss Bouhmouch's companies (The Hockey Code) for contract projections and negotiations. Some will be familiar with a portion of that company's work on Twitter under the same handle, or via former employee, Sam Forstner (who previously worked for Sportlogiq as well). While I fully support using as much data as possible in decision-making, it again begs the question why the Flames have the largest fleet of assistant general managers in the League if they need a third-party company to conduct an integral part of an assistant GM's duties for them.

Back to drafting, the Flames have actually performed exceptionally well under Treliving's leadership as a whole, and they have taken some swings on players analytically-inclined draft analysts loved much higher than their consensus ranking (Mangiapane, Andersson, Fox, Valimaki, Zary, Poirier, Francis, Kerins - note the increasing frequency since Snow's promotion). No surprise, and I suspect Chris Snow's prospect model is closely aligned with one like Byron Bader's and even my own. However there is one discouraging component that has prevented them from completely dominating the draft start to finish and that is giving Jim Cummins one or two executive picks per draft if he chooses. Cummins, for whatever reason, has the ear of Treliving and/or Button more than other scouts which has worked both terrifically and in disaster. On one hand, Cummins scooped Fox and Pettersen under Treliving's management...but on the other, he has gone to bat for Mattson, Koumontzis, Nodler, and Boltmann as well and they are all sub-1% prospects sadly. But here's the thing, Chris Snow, if using a model similar to Bader's or mine, would have supported both the Fox and Pettersen picks while likely having the other four not even ranked. If Treliving requires Snow to give the okay to Cummins' pet-project picks rather than allowing them without question, the Flames would still get the hidden gems while avoiding the picks that have as much value as lighting money on fire. Implement that and the Flames may become the best drafting team in the league moving forward, and certainly up there with the Lightning, Hurricanes, and Maple Leafs.

Snow is a huge asset and the more Treliving leans on him and learns from him, the better. The Flames are lucky to have him as he is one of the few who is able to blend the numbers game with the eye test and communicate effectively to proponents of both sides.

[keenan87]

Is this 5 coaches in under 7 years?

I am happy the Flames are bringing in Sutter but has any GM been able to do this before. Such a long leash, almost sounds like he has a job for life.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Is this 5 coaches in under 7 years?

I am happy the Flames are bringing in Sutter but has any GM been able to do this before. Such a long leash, almost sounds like he has a job for life.

I imagine he's got this job until Darryl Sutter's 2nd tenure with the team ends.

[Lanny_McDonald]

This hiring of Sutter does NOT have his fingerprints on it and it was likely forced on him. I would say Treliving has one foot out the door and has had his responsibilities greatly curtailed. I wouldn't be surprised if Sutter has to give approval of moves made and on personnel decisions affecting the on ice product. I have a feeling that Treliving's office will be "de-personalized" this morning and his GAF may be running a little low.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Treliving has been pretty quick at owning his past mistakes, from Brouwer, to Neal, to Gulutzan. It sure doesn't seem like he is overly stubborn.

Do you think Treliving went out to get Sutter? Or do you think ownership did?

[Roof-Daddy]

I'm pretty sure it was widely reported that Treliving had secured full control of hockey operations based decisions with his latest contract extension

I highly doubt he allowed ownership to make a coaching hire for him.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I'm pretty sure it was widely reported that Treliving had secured full control of hockey operations based decisions with his latest contract extension

I highly doubt he allowed ownership to make a coaching hire for him.

At most ownership told him that they thought a change was needed in strong terms, and for he would have discussed the options with them, especially because it’s their money that pays the new guy as well as Ward.

[Vinny01]

There are literally no more excuses and I am very happy with the move Treliving made firing Ward. He got a head coach who has won 2 cups in the last decade and almost won this organization a cup in 04.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I'm pretty sure it was widely reported that Treliving had secured full control of hockey operations based decisions with his latest contract extension

I highly doubt he allowed ownership to make a coaching hire for him.

Well, it's not really how it works. When the owners say, hey how about that Sutter guy, you connect the dots and do as the owners imply. Or you are out of a job. And it's not like Treliving is some hot commodity GM, this may be his only kick at that can.

So happy to see Sutter back. Just what the team needs, an authority.

Wonder if there is a longer plan in place. Coach this year out, evaluate, tinker. Business next year and the one after, hopefully some success. Then off to a POHO cushy position.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Red

Well, it's not really how it works. When the owners say, hey how about that Sutter guy, you connect the dots and do as the owners imply. Or you are out of a job. And it's not like Treliving is some hot commodity GM, this may be his only kick at that can.

So happy to see Sutter back. Just what the team needs, an authority.

Wonder if there is a longer plan in place. Coach this year out, evaluate, tinker. Business next year and the one after, hopefully some success. Then off to a POHO cushy position.

Yeah, the owners can tell him to hire whoever they want, but he has to agree to it if he has full control of hockey decisions.

They can certainly fire him if he won't agree to it, but they'd still have to honor his contract and pay him, so he really has no reason to make a move this unless it's something he wants to do.

Not unless he's just fine and dandy being the GM in name only and having his strings pulled from above like a puppet. Something tells me Treliving would have zero interest in that.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Is this 5 coaches in under 7 years?

I am happy the Flames are bringing in Sutter but has any GM been able to do this before. Such a long leash, almost sounds like he has a job for life.

First legit coach in my opinion. There are zero excuses left this is absolutely it for Treliving. Having said that I am very optimistic this move will work and this team could go on a run with Sutter pushing the buttons and Markstrom stopping the pucks.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah, the owners can tell him to hire whoever they want, but he has to agree to it if he has full control of hockey decisions.

They can certainly fire him if he won't agree to it, but they'd still have to honor his contract and pay him, so he really has no reason to make a move this unless it's something he wants to do.

Not unless he's just fine and dandy being the GM in name only and having his strings pulled from above like a puppet. Something tells me Treliving would have zero interest in that.

Why? What tells you Treliving is any different than 98% of the population? (NHL and General)

It happens all the time. You get freedom but if your boss wants something done, you get it done.

[bubbsy]

I was very sick of the lack of anything meaningful as far as change from the flames. This is a big change with some great rationale behind it.

Well done by the flames and to treliving, who I have been openly critical of around here, for this, regardless of it's ultimate impact on this season.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Why? What tells you Treliving is any different than 98% of the population? (NHL and General)

It happens all the time. You get freedom but if your boss wants something done, you get it done.

Because that's why he negotiated for full control in his latest contract, he wants full control and to do things his way.

Why would he allow them to push him around when they've given him full control and written it into his contract. Most people conform because they don't have that type of legally binding freedom.

He has the security of knowing he's still going to get paid even if they choose to fire him for not doing whatever they want. Why cave?

[Red]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Why? What tells you Treliving is any different than 98% of the population? (NHL and General)

It happens all the time. You get freedom but if your boss wants something done, you get it done.

No kidding. Trelving is not stupid. And the notion that he could say no and just get fired with a severance misses a point that Treliving would never be employed by another team. No owner would consider a guy that 1. doesnt listen to his bosses and 2. shows such poor judgement.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Because that's why he negotiated for full control in his latest contract, he wants full control and to do things his way.

Why would he allow them to push him around when they've given him full control and written it into his contract. Most people conform because they don't have that type of legally binding freedom.

He has the security of knowing he's still going to get paid even if they choose to fire him for not doing whatever they want. Why cave?

Why cave? He'd never get another job in the NHL. You don't tell owners to buzz off bacause you know better. It's an end of his career in this small circle of friends.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Red

Why cave? He'd never get another job in the NHL. You don't tell owners to buzz off bacause you know better. It's an end of his career in this small circle of friends.

He does know better, and that's why the owners agreed to give him full control.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

He does know better, and that's why the owners agreed to give him full control.

nobody gets full unconditional control.

[HUSKER4FLAMES]

Can’t help but think this could have a huge impact on the trade deadline. Good or bad

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Red

No kidding. Trelving is not stupid. And the notion that he could say no and just get fired with a severance misses a point that Treliving would never be employed by another team. No owner would consider a guy that 1. doesnt listen to his bosses and 2. shows such poor judgement.

I'm guessing it went: we'll give you one more coaching hire if, and only if, that hire is Darryl Sutter.

We were all saying Tre wouldn't get another coaching hire. This is likely the only way that changed.