Read that yesterday. Good to see there is some pushback to this type of crap.
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After arriving at his TriBeCa apartment on the appointed evening — she was “excited,” having carefully chosen her outfit after consulting with friends — they exchanged small talk and drank wine. “It was white,” she said. “I didn’t get to choose and I prefer red, but it was white wine.” Yes, we are apparently meant to read into the nonconsensual wine choice.
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If you are wondering what about this evening constituted the “worst night” of Grace’s life, or why it is being framed as a #MeToo story by a feminist website, you probably feel as confused as Mr. Ansari did the next day.
Anyone else concerned that the debate surrounding the Ansari accusation centers around whether the events described constitutes sexual assault and not on the moral fairness of publishing the account from one anonymous woman? In the previous accusations of this #MeToo movement, they were supported by other women with similar stories (or even by police reports). Or, if there is a lone accuser, such as Eliza Dushku, the woman is making the accusation openly, and not hiding behind anonymity. This particular accusation seems like a very slippery slope. Even if Ansari is not branded as a sexual assaulter by the public and by Hollywood, he was still embarrassed and humiliated publicly while the accuser remains anonymous.
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Anyone else concerned that the debate surrounding the Ansari accusation centers around whether the events described constitutes sexual assault and not on the moral fairness of publishing the account from one anonymous woman? In the previous accusations of this #MeToo movement, they were supported by other women with similar stories (or even by police reports). Or, if there is a lone accuser, such as Eliza Dushku, the woman is making the accusation openly, and not hiding behind anonymity. This particular accusation seems like a very slippery slope. Even if Ansari is not branded as a sexual assaulter by the public and by Hollywood, he was still embarrassed and humiliated publicly while the accuser remains anonymous.
Unfortunately the reaction has served to polarize "sides" in this debate.
Tons of women (and men) on social media basically just bought the insane witch hunt hook line and sinker and called Ansari a rapist. Anyone defending him is a rape apologist. And their defense of the anonymous woman centres on arguments about how she would be attacked by online trolls if her identity is revealed (which is a good possibility) and that she doesn't deserve the spotlight since she's not already famous (apparently only people who are already famous should accuse other famous people of crimes).
The sad part is that the extremists will ruin this movement for the rest of us.
I really liked the column and it laid out a lot of things.
Is #Metoo now about bad dates as well as men in power imposing their sexual will?
Being upset because a guy doesn't get your nonverbal clues is a bit bizarre, Unless you're in fear that a man is going to murder you for verbally saying no, it sounds like she had plenty of opportunities to say no to this guy, who to be fair sounds gross. But ordering her on the counter and undressing her, say no, stand up walk out.
Don't let him undress you, and dive head first into your bits and then wonder why he doesn't get why your angry later.
Don't sit there watching seinfeld, she could have done that at home.
Look, I'm all for #metoo, I think that the Hollywood casting couch, men in power taking advantage has got to go and not only Hollywood but every business segment needs to clean up their acts.
But now #metoo has the look of a weapon for revenge (possibly Paul Haggis), embarrassing and destroying someone (this case) and career opportunism and public image.
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Anyone else concerned that the debate surrounding the Ansari accusation centers around whether the events described constitutes sexual assault and not on the moral fairness of publishing the account from one anonymous woman?
The momentum of this thing has blown right past due process and now through anonymity. It's happening so fast that people are still trying to figure it all out.
Maybe the discussion of this case isn't focusing on anonymity because the chattering classes already batted that around a week ago when the author of the ####ty Media Men spreadsheet outed herself.
tldr: Woman who sent around spreadsheet asking female journalists to anonymously cite cases of bad behaviour by male colleagues is surprised and disappointed that it got out of hand and ruined careers. And in jesus-wept-level irony, some are outraged that her anonymity was about to be removed before she outed herself.
The naivete of these people is incredible. It's deeply dismaying that the products of our elite educational institutions come away with no understanding of our political heritage or the dark history of these sorts of lists. Margaret Atwood knows her history, that's why she's raising alarm bells over this crusade. Why don't younger writers and journalists?
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So a girl is sitting in your apartment naked, doing stuff to you. Aziz apparently misread the signals. I think.... I think I would have also misread those signals.
The momentum of this thing has blown right past due process and now through anonymity. It's happening so fast that people are still trying to figure it all out.
Maybe the discussion of this case isn't focusing on anonymity because the chattering classes already batted that around a week ago when the author of the ####ty Media Men spreadsheet outed herself.
tldr: Woman who sent around spreadsheet asking female journalists to anonymously cite cases of bad behaviour by male colleagues is surprised and disappointed that it got out of hand and ruined careers.
The naivete of these people is incredible. It's deeply dismaying that the products of our elite educational institutions come away with no understanding of our political heritage or the dark history of these sorts of lists. Margaret Atwood knows her history, that's why she's raising alarm bells over this crusade. Why don't younger writers and journalists?
Shes also advocating for 'Being a Woman.'
You know, real Feminism not just 'Being Angry at Men.'
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Anyone else concerned that the debate surrounding the Ansari accusation centers around whether the events described constitutes sexual assault and not on the moral fairness of publishing the account from one anonymous woman?
Not really, no. She gave her account of what happened that night, and Aziz doesn't seem to argue the facts. So the debate should be based on what constitutes sexual assault and not her name.
It's not some anonymous source saying something that may or may not have happened and the 'accused' arguing differently. Besides, Aziz knows who it is if he wanted to open up that Pandora's box.
This is more on the general people. If they read "Aziz sexual assaults woman" as a headline and don't bother to read the account to at least get their own view on the night in question, that's on them, not the woman.
If after a woman requests that you guys put back on your clothes, says she doesn't want to do anything else and you decide to try and put your fingers in her vagina, then yeah, you're probably going to get yourself in some trouble.
It doesn't really matter what happened before that point.
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Unfortunately the reaction has served to polarize "sides" in this debate.
Tons of women (and men) on social media basically just bought the insane witch hunt hook line and sinker and called Ansari a rapist. Anyone defending him is a rape apologist. And their defense of the anonymous woman centres on arguments about how she would be attacked by online trolls if her identity is revealed (which is a good possibility) and that she doesn't deserve the spotlight since she's not already famous (apparently only people who are already famous should accuse other famous people of crimes).
The sad part is that the extremists will ruin this movement for the rest of us.
Maybe I'm just fortunate, but the vast majority if not all the comments I've seen on the Ansari story are at the very least mixed reactions.
I think it's a shame that the story was contextualized the way it was. I think there's a worthwhile discussion to be had about the non-criminal but otherwise bad/unfortunate sexual stuff that happens on the dating scene.
...oh who am I kidding. That's never going to be a good discussion on the internet.
Maybe I'm just fortunate, but the vast majority if not all the comments I've seen on the Ansari story are at the very least mixed reactions.
I think it's a shame that the story was contextualized the way it was. I think there's a worthwhile discussion to be had about the non-criminal but otherwise bad/unfortunate sexual stuff that happens on the dating scene.
...oh who am I kidding. That's never going to be a good discussion on the internet.
Sure, but from who's perspective. Its not like Sex is a consistent thing where great sex is right out of the pages of harlequin romance novels (He unbuttoned my corset with trembling fingers and gently massaged my heaving breasts) while bad sex is penthouse letters (He flung me on the bed and slammed on top of me kissing me violently while ripping my clothes off). To worse sex is the more disturbing stuff that involves batteries, handcuffs and flogs.
This is the issue with modern day sexuality is its different strokes for different strokes.
If you want to get down to brass tacks, remove the idea of spontaneity, bounce the idea of fantasy and basically have it so that couples can't have sex until they fill out forms defining what they will consent to, what date sexual activity might happen and define safe words and non verbal signals.
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Not really, no. She gave her account of what happened that night, and Aziz doesn't seem to argue the facts. So the debate should be based on what constitutes sexual assault and not her name.
It's not some anonymous source saying something that may or may not have happened and the 'accused' arguing differently. Besides, Aziz knows who it is if he wanted to open up that Pandora's box.
The publishers ran the article without asking for any response from Anansi. So yeah, at the time it was published it was pretty much an unsubstantiated and one-sided account (which is why it ran in 'Babe' and not the New Yorker or the Atlantic).
And at this point, what ethical responsibility does Ansari have to protect her anonymity? Why is that a "Pandora's box?" Who gets to keep their sexual behaviour private and who doesn't?
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Not really, no. She gave her account of what happened that night, and Aziz doesn't seem to argue the facts. So the debate should be based on what constitutes sexual assault and not her name.
It's not some anonymous source saying something that may or may not have happened and the 'accused' arguing differently. Besides, Aziz knows who it is if he wanted to open up that Pandora's box.
This is more on the general people. If they read "Aziz sexual assaults woman" as a headline and don't bother to read the account to at least get their own view on the night in question, that's on them, not the woman.
I don't know what you've been reading but Aziz definitely did not confirm her version of the events.
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Sure, but from who's perspective. Its not like Sex is a consistent thing where great sex is right out of the pages of harlequin romance novels (He unbuttoned my corset with trembling fingers and gently massaged my heaving breasts) while bad sex is penthouse letters (He flung me on the bed and slammed on top of me kissing me violently while ripping my clothes off). To worse sex is the more disturbing stuff that involves batteries, handcuffs and flogs.
Heh, "disturbing".
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If you want to get down to brass tacks, remove the idea of spontaneity, bounce the idea of fantasy and basically have it so that couples can't have sex until they fill out forms defining what they will consent to, what date sexual activity might happen and define safe words and non verbal signals.
This is kind of where I was going with "this is not a discussion you can have on the internet".
Because you can't just have a discussion with the goal of people learning and considering various points of views and behaviors and possibly how to be better in their personal lives, or at least get hurt less.
No, in the internet every discussion needs conflicting agendas for people to fight over.
(BTW I definitely don't think what Azis did qualifes as sexual assault by any reasonable standard. I do think he might be kind of an unsafe date, but again not all bad behavior is criminal. I'm also definitely not taking the story as unquestionable truth.)
I don't know what you've been reading but Aziz definitely did not confirm her version of the events.
I never said confirmed, I said didn't argue the facts. He responded and said he believed everything was consensual and only the next day understood she was uncomfortable due to the text. But, as far as I'm aware, he didn't say anything specific to the events that contradicted her claims.
(BTW I definitely don't think what Azis did qualifes as sexual assault by any reasonable standard. I do think he might be kind of an unsafe date, but again not all bad behavior is criminal. I'm also definitely not taking the story as unquestionable truth.)
further to that I think it is odd how quick some people are willing to dismiss the story as sexual assault but then are also willing to label Aziz as a creep.
He didn't "do" anything. He was accused of sexual assault by someone who made the claim anonymously on a third rate tabloid website.
The accuser has no credibility. Her version of events shouldn't be given any credence at all.
Forgetting about the specific event, if the only way to accuse someone of sexual assault is to make sure your name is front and center, that's a great way to discourage accusers from coming forward through whatever means they chose.
I can certainly agree, to some extent, that the accused should not have their name revealed until proven through court when it comes to rape and sexual assault accusations and charges.
I can not agree that an accuser needs to have their name known publicly for them to be credible.
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If after a woman requests that you guys put back on your clothes, says she doesn't want to do anything else and you decide to try and put your fingers in her vagina, then yeah, you're probably going to get yourself in some trouble.
It doesn't really matter what happened before that point.
I don't think that happened per her account.
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They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they’d already “chilled” on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld. She’d never seen it before. She said that’s when the reality of what was going on sank in. “It really hit me that I was violated. I felt really emotional all at once when we sat down there. That that whole experience was actually horrible.”
While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants. She turned away. She remembers “feeling in a different mindset at that point.”
