Toronto Blue Jays vs. Cleveland Indians - ALCS

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I still get the impression that people hate Shapiro and Atkins but worship Anthopolis.

I look at that Cleveland team and I'm pretty jealous of what they've been able to build. That team has a lot of good home grown talent that's making an impact this year.

You can see in their pro scouting of pitchers that they can identify guys who still have good stuff that they can rehabilitate. Having Liriano in place of Dickey next year should allow the Jays to put out as good a 5 man rotation as anyone. If they can start drafting and getting some position players who can produce in the majors I think the Jays could still be a pretty good team.

AA for all his huffing and puffing about high ceiling prospects....didn't deliver them on time, and he tended to trade his best ones for expensive veterans to get better now. Which is showing to be the wrong way to go in Baseball.

Agree 100%. I've never understood why people complain that Toronto will become Cleveland like its a bad thing. Fans love AA because he built the team like they would. Made splashy trades and splashy free agency signings but in reality he didn't build a very sustainable product and didn't build a franchise that could contend year after year. He wound up giving up alot of talent to build some very mediocre clubs.

The best Jays position player they have drafted and developed in the last 10 years is Kevin Pillar and the last position player they drafted that became an All-Star I'm pretty sure was Vernon Wells. That tells you all you need to know about the problems the Jays have. So far, I've seen Shapiro and Atkins pretty determined to address that which I think is critical and the right move.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I really hope he's fired immediately. Might be the worst manager in ball.
Francona really taking him to school here. What a fantastic job of managing the bullpen yesterday, juggling things to give up nothing while keeping everyone available for today.
Gibbons only move is the 3 run shot.

Of course Francona looks like a wizard; deploying any of his bullpen arms against the Jays hitters right now they look completely baffled. They haven't had any high leverage innings to pitch out of since Game 1, innings 1-4. Since then, it's been smooth sailing.

Don't know where Gibby has rubbed ppl the wrong way these playoffs but IMO he's done a great job.

[cross16]

Not sure why people pin offensive struggles on a manager. He can't tell them when to swing.

Not to mention its funny to me that Francono is being hailed as this fantastic manager but yet Gibby sucks because the Jays can hit. Yet the Indians are BARELY outhitting the Jays in this series.

Totals 3 96 3 17 2 1 1 3 24 7 34 1 .177 .233 .250 .483
Opponents 3 88 8 17 2 0 4 8 31 7 20 2 .193 .253 .352 .605

Difference in the series is Indians have hit 4 HR, Jays 1. That isn't on Gibby.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I really hope he's fired immediately. Might be the worst manager in ball.
Francona really taking him to school here. What a fantastic job of managing the bullpen yesterday, juggling things to give up nothing while keeping everyone available for today.
Gibbons only move is the 3 run shot.

Good bullpens make managers look like geniuses and bad pullpens make managers look like idiots.

It's really as simple as that in baseball.

Plus if the Jays bats could get a timely hit then this series could easily be 3-0 the other way.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Plus if the Jays bats could get a timely hit then this series could easily be 3-0 the other way.

Which is why I'm going to keep telling myself that this isn't an insurmountable 3-0 series deficit. The Jays aren't being blown out here - it just feels that way...

[Sylvanfan]

Should the Indians make it to the World Series, it will be interesting to see what they do in the games in National League parks. Last night Francona is able to go thru 6 relievers without too much trouble since he never needs to worry about anyone ever coming up to bat and if that will hurt his teams ability to generate offence.

[Skaloper]

Originally Posted by kevman

Which is why I'm going to keep telling myself that this isn't an insurmountable 3-0 series deficit. The Jays aren't being blown out here - it just feels that way...

If they get past Kluber today I think anything can happen tomorrow. Also you would think that eventually the hitters should adjust to the breaking ball.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by cross16

Agree 100%. I've never understood why people complain that Toronto will become Cleveland like its a bad thing. Fans love AA because he built the team like they would. Made splashy trades and splashy free agency signings but in reality he didn't build a very sustainable product and didn't build a franchise that could contend year after year. He wound up giving up alot of talent to build some very mediocre clubs.

The best Jays position player they have drafted and developed in the last 10 years is Kevin Pillar and the last position player they drafted that became an All-Star I'm pretty sure was Vernon Wells. That tells you all you need to know about the problems the Jays have. So far, I've seen Shapiro and Atkins pretty determined to address that which I think is critical and the right move.

I love the Shapiro and Atkins move. These guys get is from a baseball perspective. AA is so overrated it's unbelievable.

That said, I don't think people look at Cleveland as a bad thing. What gets them angry is that we should be looking at what these guys did in a small market like Cleveland and be stoked as to what they can do in market with Toronto and some payroll, but deep down we all know they were brought in here to get the job done cheaply like it was done in Cleveland.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I dislike Gibbons as much as the next guy, but there's no way we can blame him or what is going on in the ALCS.

[TheAlpineOracle]

If the Jays beat Kluber today I think there's a chance we win in 7. The rotations favours us, and there's no way Miller can keep pitching two innings every game without A) Getting Fatigued B) Jays not picking up on him.

Beating Kluber today with the way we are hitting is more of a monumental task in my mind than coming back and winning the series if we win today.

[Jiggy_12]

From 1994-2014 the Jays were completely deceased at this time of year.

We get to watch game 4 of the ALCS today, we are in the final 4 and who knows when the next time we'll be here.

At some point yes the statute of limitations will expire on harping about their horrible non-playoff drought but that is still fresh enough in my mind to be able to still enjoy this moment.

A win today will have everyone singing a different tune tomorrow. Let's just get this win and have some fun with it.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I love the Shapiro and Atkins move. These guys get is from a baseball perspective. AA is so overrated it's unbelievable.

That said, I don't think people look at Cleveland as a bad thing. What gets them angry is that we should be looking at what these guys did in a small market like Cleveland and be stoked as to what they can do in market with Toronto and some payroll, but deep down we all know they were brought in here to get the job done cheaply like it was done in Cleveland.

You do but i don't.

Keep in mind that all reports had Shapiro as their 4th choice. They went after Dombrowski, Williams and Duquette. None of those guys were from a small market or operate under low payrolls so I don't read into this the same way you do.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by cross16

You do but i don't.

Keep in mind that all reports had Shapiro as their 4th choice. They went after Dombrowski, Williams and Duquette. None of those guys were from a small market or operate under low payrolls so I don't read into this the same way you do.

Thank god they didn't get Williams or Duquette.

[Roof-Daddy]

Welp. Here's to hoping the Jays don't go down easy and put up a serious fight.

If they can beat Kluber today and extend the series, at the very least maybe they can take a little of the swagger away from the Indians. It'd be nice to see them sweat a little. They've played good but they've certainly had just about everything go their way this post season so far.

Every game has been so close it's a damn shame that it's 3-0 one way.

[Roof-Daddy]

One thing this 3-0 deficit has done is made it so I'm not nervous at all tuning in to watch this anymore.

[Enoch Root]

good start

[Roof-Daddy]

Sanchez has his good stuff today. Pitches are moving like they do when he's on.

[Zulu29]

If the Jays win today, they're gonna take the series. There's no way the bats can stay silent much longer and Cleveland is running their pitchers ragged. Go Jays!

[Roof-Daddy]

Seeing Alomar there, looking back, man I can't believe the Jays let him go when he was just 27 years old. I was too young to realize that at the time, if they let a player like that go nowadays I'd lose my ####.

[V]

Sanchez looks good today. Pretty sure we just need bats today to win.