Stabbing in Brentwood-5 Dead, 1 Arrested

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by peter12

My real issue is that it often involves unverified statements that have nothing to do with the crime. So it shouldn't matter whether your son was a wonderful boy or an absolute disgusting wretch - murder is murder in the eyes of the law.

It sets a standard of bias, which should have nothing to do with justice.

The defense has the ability and used it during the trial. All the testimony about how de Grood was a nice normal guy from his friends and co-workers. If the accused gets the opportunity to paint themselves in the best possible light, why doesn't the prosecution?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

I've read enough of your posts to know you're not looking for kudos but goddamn man you do noble work.

He does it for the chicks.

[Raekwon]

Originally Posted by Reaper

If someone was not responsible for stealing your car would you sentence him to prison for it? If someone was not responsible for hitting your car then would their insurance pay for your claim?

Not responsible means not responsible. You can't say that a person is not responsible by reason of mental defect and then punish them for a crime because society needs its pound of flesh. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Sometimes in order for justice to be just vengeance isn't possible because it isn't always just. Revenge is a natural human reaction to the situation but it isn't always an enlightened one.

And the victims are not responsible for their death but they are dead so that doesn't matter, what matters is the physical being that killed them is not responsible for their death because he was mentally someone else. So who is responsible? That someone is in his head commanding the body, it may not be Matthew de Grood but its someone that is staying with him in his head. Can we guarantee it won't happen again?

Mental Illness is a very real issue that needs a lot more attention so that people can get help before actions take them beyond help. Its a sad thing to think that this may not have happened if he had got help and/or medication but it did happen and its too late.

[rubecube]

Does anyone have a quick link to some stats on the recidivism rate among people found not criminally responsible for mental health reasons? I was under the impression that it was incredibly low.

[townie_80]

Reading some of these comments makes me sick. My dad was schizophrenic. Not something I talk about to even my closest friends. Because the stigma in our society is so bad. My dad was not a monster. He was once a loving husband, son and dad. The demons that got in his head were his undoing. He once told my mom he had to go for a while because the voices were telling him to do terrible things. He went off to the woods and camped for three weeks alone. It terrifies me to think of what could have been had he not realized he needed to go. These psychotic episodes can just happen at any time. It's so unfair to judge the parents for not handing him over for help. And the help in this province is not exactly great.

For those saying he will get off and live some happy life while everyone else involved suffers. Let me tell you that living with this disorder does not make for a happy life. My dad is no longer with us but I can say that the last 25 years of his life were not living. It was torture for him and it was torture for all who loved him.

This whole case is absolutely devastating. There will be justice for no one. I can't see how living life with schizophrenia is just. Sometimes life is awful and unfair and people end up suffering and there can be no justice. If he is found to be insane I really hope people understand that he is not a monster. And for those who still do - I sincerely hope that no one in your family ever has to suffer from this.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The defense has the ability and used it during the trial. All the testimony about how de Grood was a nice normal guy from his friends and co-workers. If the accused gets the opportunity to paint themselves in the best possible light, why doesn't the prosecution?

Difference is DeGrood is on trial and is pleading insanity so it does make a difference to the trial.

I don't see the point of having victim impact statements during the trial. Isn't it usually just before sentencing?

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Canada has a painfully broken system that protects the person's freedom and rights so much, even to the detriment of society, that situations such as this one and the Greyhound one, will happen again because nothing happened prior. Having dealt with it first hand is frustrating beyond belief. My brother is as schizophrenic as it gets, and he's out there because the system does not allow someone to be forced against their will in an institution, unless there is a criminal history or strong belief he is a danger to others. My brother would get interviewed, get asked if he is hearing voices to hurt someone or kill someone, he would say no, he would be let free. Even when he disappeared after briefly being on a program, my dad was told "well the program expires if he decides to stop on his own, and we will not pursue to find him".

Since my brother has disappeared with no identity and likely has changed his name, he could just become one of these guys, people will question how this could happen, and talk again about the whole 'insanity plead' scam in court. Vince Li was 100% insane, but since his only connection was his wife, he never got help and worked as a normal guy until that one incident. Heck a co-worker working right next to you could be one of these guys keeping their secrets and fears to themselves. Being an immigrant, would his wife even know to get help, and if she did, would she have gotten any? Vince Li was a law abiding citizen after all.

Firebot, he sounds exactly like my great uncle. My grandpa tried to have him committed back in the 60's but was unsuccessful. My great-grandma was the only one who could get him to take his medication. When she died, he ditched the meds and became a street person. He would show up at a relatives once in awhile, I met him once in 91 or 92. He would talk to you in normal conversation one moment and go off the rails 5 minutes later, talking to people who weren't there or singing loudly. We had a pretty good chat about hockey (he was a pretty decent athlete back in the day).

There were a few violent incidents, he took someone hostage once (he had a gun). He mostly stayed off the radar.

The last I had heard, he had been hit by a car riding his bicycle in Winnipeg. The doctors were stunned because he left the hospital only a month later, his broken hip pretty much healed (I think he was 85 at the time). He died just shy of 90, the family found out by accident, he ended up near Richmond, BC and was buried in a pauper's grave.

I hope your brother has a better ending to his story. I think it all comes down to them wanting to take their medications.

[Language]

Originally Posted by townie_80

Reading some of these comments makes me sick. My dad was schizophrenic. Not something I talk about to even my closest friends. Because the stigma in our society is so bad. My dad was not a monster. He was once a loving husband, son and dad. The demons that got in his head were his undoing. He once told my mom he had to go for a while because the voices were telling him to do terrible things. He went off to the woods and camped for three weeks alone. It terrifies me to think of what could have been had he not realized he needed to go. These psychotic episodes can just happen at any time. It's so unfair to judge the parents for not handing him over for help. And the help in this province is not exactly great.

For those saying he will get off and live some happy life while everyone else involved suffers. Let me tell you that living with this disorder does not make for a happy life. My dad is no longer with us but I can say that the last 25 years of his life were not living. It was torture for him and it was torture for all who loved him.

This whole case is absolutely devastating. There will be justice for no one. I can't see how living life with schizophrenia is just. Sometimes life is awful and unfair and people end up suffering and there can be no justice. If he is found to be insane I really hope people understand that he is not a monster. And for those who still do - I sincerely hope that no one in your family ever has to suffer from this.

Well said. As much as I want justice for these poor five kids who had their lives ended prematurely, it must be incredibly "difficult" (I don't even know the proper way to describe it) to be schizophrenic and snap out of an episode and realize what you have committed. As you said, there will be justice for no one in the end. I almost wish he just committed these murders out of jealousy/anger/some other explainable reason.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Raekwon

And the victims are not responsible for their death but they are dead so that doesn't matter, what matters is the physical being that killed them is not responsible for their death because he was mentally someone else. So who is responsible?

Sometimes no one is responsible. It is easier to mentally make a person responsible for a crime because it helps to target feelings of revenge at someone instead of accepting that it was a terrible tragedy. People who die in natural disasters aren't (usually) responsible for their own deaths but no amount of blaming the earth will hold anyone responsible.

Originally Posted by Raekwon

That someone is in his head commanding the body, it may not be Matthew de Grood but its someone that is staying with him in his head. Can we guarantee it won't happen again?

There are no guarantees in life; only degrees of probability. I leave the determination of the probabilities with regards to mental health to medical professionals. With medical treatment it is possible for someone with mental illness to function in society. We can't go around taking away personal liberties because we are afraid that something terrible might happen. I appreciate the emotional crisis this brings but nothing will bring the victims back. We have no Department of Pre-Crime to address this.

Originally Posted by Raekwon

Mental Illness is a very real issue that needs a lot more attention so that people can get help before actions take them beyond help. Its a sad thing to think that this may not have happened if he had got help and/or medication but it did happen and its too late.

It is tragic that these deaths would have been preventable with medical and psychiatric intervention. Society still has a long way to go towards destigmatizing mental illness so that more people will talk about mental health and seek help before something terrible happens. It doesn't help society as a whole when tragedies like this occur and the mob gathers their torches and pitchforks.

[calumniate]

Thanks to those of you who've shared stories, has been really nice to see. It's pretty hard to talk about this type of illness. My uncle was diagnosed in his early fifties when he took a big turn for the worse. Medications would turn him into a complete zombie. Without them, he would become paranoid and suicidal.

A few months later he managed to convince the doctor that he didn't like the antipsychotics, and a week or two afterwards took his own life. The things going on in his brain were simply too much. Luckily he was never violent towards anyone else, but at his level of psychosis it could have easily gone the other way.

It's really too bad the antipsychotics are so rough on people. When my uncle was on them it was as though he was alive but not really there. Sad

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by habernac

Firebot, he sounds exactly like my great uncle. My grandpa tried to have him committed back in the 60's but was unsuccessful. My great-grandma was the only one who could get him to take his medication. When she died, he ditched the meds and became a street person. He would show up at a relatives once in awhile, I met him once in 91 or 92. He would talk to you in normal conversation one moment and go off the rails 5 minutes later, talking to people who weren't there or singing loudly. We had a pretty good chat about hockey (he was a pretty decent athlete back in the day).

There were a few violent incidents, he took someone hostage once (he had a gun). He mostly stayed off the radar.

The last I had heard, he had been hit by a car riding his bicycle in Winnipeg. The doctors were stunned because he left the hospital only a month later, his broken hip pretty much healed (I think he was 85 at the time). He died just shy of 90, the family found out by accident, he ended up near Richmond, BC and was buried in a pauper's grave.

I hope your brother has a better ending to his story. I think it all comes down to them wanting to take their medications.

My brother would get on these weird talks like you describe. He would be perfectly fine, then you could see something shift in his head, and he starts rambling at random about a story about life cells and how they would multiply and you could see how life and the earth was created, and he knows the secret to life. To him, it made perfect sense to jump in to talk about this discovery while we are at a famiy gathering, but he would get really upset if someone asked him what he was talking about. He would try to explain again to no avail and get even more mad. He would be right back to normal 5 minutes later. This would be after we knew he had schizophrenia.

He had severe bouts of migraines throughout his life, and his only relief to the pain was banging his head on the walls. Eventually there likely was some damage and a chemical imbalance, and it just got progressively worse.

Unfortunately, the only way for this to have a positive ending is for him to be coherant enough one day to realize he needs help and reach out to a family member; I have no idea where he is and have no way to contact. He was almost there and had his feet on the ground and working again (would speak with him over the phone for a few hours about how he was getting his life back together, I was the only one he would speak to), but he went off medications (since there was 'nothing' wrong) and went off the rails soon after.

[jayswin]

What an incredible turn this thread has taken. Thanks to all who shared personal stories, takes a lot of guts to share.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Thanks to those of you who've shared stories, has been really nice to see. It's pretty hard to talk about this type of illness. My uncle was diagnosed in his early fifties when he took a big turn for the worse. Medications would turn him into a complete zombie. Without them, he would become paranoid and suicidal.

A few months later he managed to convince the doctor that he didn't like the antipsychotics, and a week or two afterwards took his own life. The things going on in his brain were simply too much. Luckily he was never violent towards anyone else, but at his level of psychosis it could have easily gone the other way.

It's really too bad the antipsychotics are so rough on people. When my uncle was on them it was as though he was alive but not really there. Sad

That's what my great uncle said as well. He HATED the way the meds made him feel. He felt sluggish, mentally slow.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by habernac

That's what my great uncle said as well. He HATED the way the meds made him feel. He felt sluggish, mentally slow.

I used to be an orderly at the Foothills in a previous life and one of the patients told me that being on his meds made him drool like a saint Bernard and that it was arguably harder to function in society doing that than hearing voices.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by townie_80

Reading some of these comments makes me sick. My dad was schizophrenic. Not something I talk about to even my closest friends. Because the stigma in our society is so bad. My dad was not a monster. He was once a loving husband, son and dad. The demons that got in his head were his undoing. He once told my mom he had to go for a while because the voices were telling him to do terrible things. He went off to the woods and camped for three weeks alone. It terrifies me to think of what could have been had he not realized he needed to go. These psychotic episodes can just happen at any time. It's so unfair to judge the parents for not handing him over for help. And the help in this province is not exactly great.

For those saying he will get off and live some happy life while everyone else involved suffers. Let me tell you that living with this disorder does not make for a happy life. My dad is no longer with us but I can say that the last 25 years of his life were not living. It was torture for him and it was torture for all who loved him.

This whole case is absolutely devastating. There will be justice for no one. I can't see how living life with schizophrenia is just. Sometimes life is awful and unfair and people end up suffering and there can be no justice. If he is found to be insane I really hope people understand that he is not a monster. And for those who still do - I sincerely hope that no one in your family ever has to suffer from this.

If DeGrood is actually schizophrenic I agree, an MRI test would be better than a verbal evaluation. Patients with schizophrenia show different structural patterns that inhibit critical thinking and self management let alone the painful delusions and hallucinations that go along with cortex degradation.

"Significant Loss of Brain Gray Matter: Individuals with schizophrenia, including those who have never been treated, have a reduced volume of gray matter in the brain, especially in the temporal and frontal lobes. Recently neuroscientists have detected gray matter loss of up to 25% (in some areas). The damage started in the parietal, or outer, regions of the brain but spread to the rest of the brain over a five year period. Patients with the worst brain tissue loss also had the worst symptoms, which included hallucinations, delusions, bizarre and psychotic thoughts, hearing voices, and depression."


http://www.schizophrenia.com/disease.htm

A Sample of Recent Relevant Research:
Ventricular enlargement in schizophrenia related to volume reduction of the thalamus, striatum, and superior temporal cortex, Am J Psychiatry. 2004 Jan;161(1):154-6.
Association between minor physical anomalies and lateral ventricular enlargement in childhood and adolescent onset schizophrenia, Acta Psychiatr Scand. 2003 Aug;108(2):147-51
Progressive structural brain abnormalities and their relationship to clinical outcome: a longitudinal magnetic resonance imaging study early in schizophrenia. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2003 Jun;60(6):585-94.
Cerebral ventricular enlargement as a generalized feature of schizophrenia: a distribution analysis on 502 subjects., Schizophr Res. 2000 Jul 7;44(1):25-34.
Van Horn JD, McManus IC. Ventricular enlargement in schizophrenia. A meta-analysis of studies of the ventricle:brain ratio (VBR). British Journal of Psychiatry 160:687–697, 1992.
Soares JC, Mann JJ. The anatomy of mood disorders: review of structural neuroimaging studies. Biological Psychiatry 41:86–106, 1997.
Elkis H, Friedman L, Wise A, et al. Meta-analyses of studies of ventricular enlargement and cortical sulcal prominence in mood disorders. Comparisons with controls or patients with schizophrenia. Archives of General Psychiatry 52:735–746, 1995.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

You can't identify schizophrenia from a MRI. There are definite structural differences that are seen across populations but that can't be used to make a diagnosis on an individual level.

[afc wimbledon]

I think it's important to realize that the vast majority of people that go to 'hospital' rather than jail (and trust me the hospital looks and functions in exactly the same way as a jail) will spend significantly longer locked up than they would if they went to jail as an ordinary criminal.

[peter12]

I used to volunteer at a mental institute. The first five floors were pretty much like an old folks home, and were filled with people who needed long-term care, but weren't really at risk to themselves or others. The top two floors were for those sad souls with violent tendencies. I was allowed to go up, escorted, a couple of times to make some deliveries. It was awful.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

You can't identify schizophrenia from a MRI. There are definite structural differences that are seen across populations but that can't be used to make a diagnosis on an individual level.

Dr. AcGold strikes again.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

I used to volunteer at a mental institute. The first five floors were pretty much like an old folks home, and were filled with people who needed long-term care, but weren't really at risk to themselves or others. The top two floors were for those sad souls with violent tendencies. I was allowed to go up, escorted, a couple of times to make some deliveries. It was awful.

I spent years working as a release worker in our local youth custody centre.
Had to drive a kid from jail to Riverview, the mental health facility in Vancouver.
The kid was hitting 19 and to old and unstable for jail, we got to the 'hospital' and he was shown his bed in a Dickensian ward full of shuffling drooling medicated wrecks, the kid was crying and begging me to take him back to the jail, one of the worst days I had in a job where about 1 in twenty of my clients ended up getting killed in the gang wars.