Israel declares war on Hamas

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

I don't see anything untrue in the article or the PDF assuming the study itself is valid, so I think you are disagreeing with something that wasn't said. The only source of spin I can see is in the questions and demographic comparisons they haven't revealed (because the raw data is not shown).

The largest numbers in most groups answered do not know/prefer not to answer for the "which group do you side with" question. Probably some people don't have an opinion out of ignorance or a fear of answering, others are truly neutral (aware but none of my business) and others are antipathicly neutral like you say.

Clearly more Canadians who have an opinion side with Israel over Hamas, regardless of your opinion.

The poster wrote: “Poll shows most Canadians, but not youth, support Israel” which is untrue and not supported by the survey.

Not sure what you’re struggling with here, that’s obviously what Fuzz was disagreeing with.

[Bownesian]

Fair enough but it's not that far off of what the data shows. It's common practice to quote polls such that the neutral/no answers are not considered and we compare the people who have a non-neutral opinion to each other (net positive).

At this point, I don't know if that was Pepper's editorializing beyond the data or an older, subsequently corrected National Post headline that did so. Since this sort of error is common in media, it wouldn't surprise me to see either.

It's truer to say "Poll shows more Canadians, but not youth, support Israel over Hamas", or "Poll shows Canadians, but not youth, have a net positive view of Israel over Hamas".

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

Fair enough but it's not that far off of what the data shows. It's common practice to quote polls such that the neutral/no answers are not considered and we compare the people who have a non-neutral opinion to each other (net positive).

At this point, I don't know if that was Pepper's editorializing beyond the data or an older, subsequently corrected National Post headline that did so. Since this sort of error is common in media, it wouldn't surprise me to see either.

It's truer to say "Poll shows more Canadians, but not youth, support Israel over Hamas", or "Poll shows Canadians, but not youth, have a net positive view of Israel over Hamas".

It's also true to say based on the poll that the majority of Canadians can't pick between a supposedly democratic modern first world country and ally, and a terrorist organization. To me, that's more interesting than the difference between the two. If you have a poll question and you can't even get half the respondents to give you an answer, the telling bit probably isn't in the answers.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

Fair enough but it's not that far off of what the data shows. It's common practice to quote polls such that the neutral/no answers are not considered and we compare the people who have a non-neutral opinion to each other (net positive).

At this point, I don't know if that was Pepper's editorializing beyond the data or an older, subsequently corrected National Post headline that did so. Since this sort of error is common in media, it wouldn't surprise me to see either.

It's truer to say "Poll shows more Canadians, but not youth, support Israel over Hamas", or "Poll shows Canadians, but not youth, have a net positive view of Israel over Hamas".

“Poll shows Canadians, but not youth, have a net positive view of Israel over Hamas” is also not supported by the survey.

The survey is pretty clear, so there’s no need for “truer” as any sort of definition. There’s what is true, and what isn’t.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Poll shows most Canadians, but not youth, support Israel

https://nationalpost.com/news/most-c...ths-poll-finds

Students were more likely to support Hamas (21 per cent) than Israel (16 per cent). Fewer younger Canadians (only 34 per cent) were aware that Hamas has been designated a terrorist organization by the federal government. It was the reverse among senior Canadians (73 per cent). Canada listed Hamas as a terrorist entity in the Canadian Criminal Code almost 20 years ago, in November 2002.

For people working full-time, the numbers are divided 26.9 per cent for Israel and 8.9 per cent for Hamas. Among retirees that split is 44.6 per cent for Israel and 4.6 per cent for Hamas.

When it came to respondents’ political leanings, people on the left end of the spectrum were more inclined to support Hamas (24.6 per cent for Hamas and 19.7 per cent for Israel). Respondents who identified as “right” were more inclined to support Israel (62.9 per cent) versus Hamas (1.9 per cent).

The fact that 21% of students and almost 9% full time working people in Canada support Hamas is absolutely disgusting.

That is probably close to one in 10 Canadians.

What is wrong with people?

[PepsiFree]

It’s an interesting survey anyway. One thing I found interesting (of many) and relevant to some of the discussion had here is the view of Zionism, where almost half (47%) had a negative view, and only 18% had a positive view.

Another suggests that some sentiment may be based on racial and religious grounds, as while 67% had a positive view of Canadian Jews, only 53% had a positive view of Canadian Muslims and 51% of Canadian Arabs (both those numbers went below 50% when the term “Canadian” was removed, but remained at 67% for Jews when “Canadian” was removed). Positive views of Israelis and Palestinians were 45% and 41% respectively. So, it seems that positives views of Jews remained high regardless of whether they were Canadian and despite less positive views of Israelis, while positive views of Muslims and Arabs dropped if they weren’t Canadian, and dropped as positive views of Palestinians dropped.

I know anti-semitism has been a hot topic, so it’s interesting that positives views of Jews has remained quite high. Perhaps less than positive sentiment directed toward Muslims and Arabs is more pressing concern?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

The fact that 21% of students and almost 9% full time working people in Canada support Hamas is absolutely disgusting.

That is probably close to one in 10 Canadians.

What is wrong with people?

The pretty simple answer based on the survey is that the majority aren’t aware it’s been designated a terrorist organization or wrongly believe it isn’t.

[GGG]

The bigger info to be gleaned is that neither side is supported by a majority of Canadians in any age group

The poll leaves out the key neither option in the Hamas vs Israel question leaving people who support neither with prefer not say or I don’t know.

[Bownesian]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

“Poll shows Canadians, but not youth, have a net positive view of Israel over Hamas” is also not supported by the survey.

The survey is pretty clear, so there’s no need for “truer” as any sort of definition. There’s what is true, and what isn’t.

"Net Positive" is a defined term. It means more positive views than negative ones, which this poll supports.

Most poll questions have something like 20 to 30% in the no answer/don't know/neutral category so I agree there is likely a signal of both sides being wrong.

One of the challenges I see in this poll is that Canadians are pretty divided on whether either side (Israeli Jews/Palestinians) deserves their own state/self determination in that region of the world. Both carry a slim majority with large neutral/don't know cohort and a not insignificant number of noes to both questions.

I know personally I am getting pretty extreme against the groups cheering on "Death to..." (anyone) and baying for Israeli blood in Canadian Jewish neighborhoods as that cohort seems to be getting worse every weekend. I don't see this ending well here.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

The fact that 21% of students and almost 9% full time working people in Canada support Hamas is absolutely disgusting.

That is probably close to one in 10 Canadians.

What is wrong with people?

Should, At this point anyone supporting the actions of the IDF in Gaza be also condemned?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

"Net Positive" is a defined term. It means more positive views than negative ones, which this poll supports.

Well, no, it means more positive views than any other views, including negative views and not having a positive or negative view, and the poll did not show that “Canadians” had a net positive view of Israel over Hamas. The poll didn’t even measure the net positive view of Israel.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The pretty simple answer based on the survey is that the majority aren’t aware it’s been designated a terrorist organization or wrongly believe it isn’t.

I also think that is a huge part where it isn't always apparent that Hamas does not equal Palestine, and people will answer based on their perception. There has been enough chatter in this thread that it is obvious, but that isn't to say there isn't a lot of ambiguity there when answering these questions. Especially when the poll asks both questions of do you support Hamas or Israel and then asks if you are more sympathetic to Palestine or Israel.

Plus, while Canada has designated Hamas as a terrorist organization, there are cases where some countries only designate the Military wing as terrorist, not all of Hamas. New Zealand for example only recently designated the whole of Hamas as terrorist after years of focusing on the military wing. Depending on who you ask the question to, you might end up with "Hamas isn't a terrorist organization as a whole".

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

The bigger info to be gleaned is that neither side is supported by a majority of Canadians in any age group

The poll leaves out the key neither option in the Hamas vs Israel question leaving people who support neither with prefer not say or I don’t know.

In all the polls I’ve seen, “neither” has been the top response of Canadians on this conflict going back to the 90s.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

The fact that 21% of students and almost 9% full time working people in Canada support Hamas is absolutely disgusting.

That is probably close to one in 10 Canadians.

What is wrong with people?

That's the consequence of Israel's many many over reactions, invasions, killings, the massive theft of land and brutality in the West Bank, people want to take sides with the good guys and Israel has sadly given people ample reason to see them as the bad guys

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In all the polls I’ve seen, “neither” has been the top response of Canadians on this conflict going back to the 90s.

I also don’t think it should be surprising to anyone who has been involved in this conversation, as support for neither seems to be the majority opinion, with support for Hamas being underrepresented and support for Israel being maybe somewhat overrepresented (all compared against the recent survey).

[SutterBrother]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The polls on that PSR site are interesting. They show that fewer than 40% of Palestinians want a two-state solution, and the majority support armed conflict over a negotiated solotuion. Polls from 2020, so maybe things have changes since then, but I have my doubts.

Yes. Things have changed.

[Manhattanboy]

Disgusting, racist, hateful scene in Vancouver on the anniversary of October 7.

“We are Hamas, We are Hezbollah, Death to Canada, Death to Israel!”

Such a lovely Canadian city. We should be proud.

https://flip.it/0d3GPr

[Bownesian]

I think most of CP wouldn't touch this toxic nightmare of a thread with a 10 foot pole, which matches the "neither" being the majority here...

For me personally, I (strongly) support both the Jewish/Israeli and Muslim/Palestinian population's right to self determination and peace in that region. History has passed and both peoples are there and will be there in the future. That means that Right of Return can only be to Palestinian areas.

I think that contrary to this thread's name, Hamas is the one that declared war a year ago and broke the peace, such as it was. They chose this fight, chose the battlefield, and don't care the damage it does to their own people, and in fact expect it as part of their war and propaganda strategy.

For me, Israel is fighting a war with just goals (the elimination of a hardened, criminal, and genocidal enemy in Gaza and another one in Lebanon who similarly doesn't care what happens to their people). I am not convinced that Israel is prosecuting this war exclusively with just means, but they have made significant efforts to reduce civilian casualties beyond what any other country in history has done in major urban assaults.

I don't believe there is a genocide happening in Gaza. The territory is not under siege (food and medicine are allowed in), and destruction, though vast, has not been indiscriminate.

I think there are people in Israel (including some in the government coalition - yay PR) who wish this was a genocide, but I don't see it. I see a fight that Hamas chose, that cannot be pursued any way other than by levelling half the buildings in Gaza and killing a lot of human shields/civilians, willing (as in families/supporters of Hamas who stay put to guard their loved ones with their lives) and unwilling (wrong place, wrong time, can't move). Some of the innocent deaths are on Israel, but most are Hamas' fault due to where they store their weapons and hide their fighters.

Since there is no other end point, I hope for a swift, full destruction of Hamas in Gaza so Israel can make a new peace with a new polity.

I'd be Strongly Oppose for Hamas and Somewhat Support for Israel.

[PepsiFree]

Yuck

[Manhattanboy]

Another article on the demonstrations in Vancouver.

https://apple.news/A44_rMFJgTp2Pup0qT1Kilw

Not sure I have ever seen the Canadian flag burned.