Israel declares war on Hamas

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think that this is a fair opinion, but the debate isn't whether or not some civilians dying is an acceptable part of war, the debate is, how many civilians need to be killed or displaced before the international community needs to intervene.

Agreed. That’s the point GGG was making - to seriously grapple with the ethics of this struggle, you need to get into weeds of how many civilian casualties are tolerable (as gross as that might feel).

[GGG]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As I already pointed out, there’s actually nothing that suggests “Israel has a right to respond” is synonymous with “Israel has a right to start a war”

The difference between a response and a war is essentially the amount of civilians that die and if you consider that number acceptable or not. Unless you have a better definition you would prefer to use.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Agreed. That’s the point GGG was making - to seriously grapple with the ethics of this struggle, you need to get into weeds of how many civilian casualties are tolerable (as gross as that might feel).

Do you though? I think at this point it's pretty obvious you don't need to get into the weeds. It's not like Israel is 1% worse than what might be deemed acceptable. It is clearly, blatantly beyond the line, wherever you choose to draw it as an individual. And if an individual can't see that, that's kinda on them to examine why they can excuse it, and if situations were reversed, if they'd still be OK with the outcome.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Agreed. That’s the point GGG was making - to seriously grapple with the ethics of this struggle, you need to get into weeds of how many civilian casualties are tolerable (as gross as that might feel).

But I already told him ‘less than a thousand’ and the numbers in Gaza are in the 10s of thousands.

So what’s the problem here? It’s case closed.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think that this is a fair opinion, but the debate isn't whether or not some civilians dying is an acceptable part of war, the debate is, how many civilians need to be killed or displaced before the international community needs to intervene.

I know that this report is likely biased, but if it is near a whisper of the truth. Then what is happening here is more than war.

If you place this in the context that 70% of building have been destroyed and 90% of the people have been displaced. 1.9million people. This is quite a bit more than #### happens.

There are different reports from international human rights organizations, but some estimates (when including people buried under rubble and indirect deaths due to starvation and lack of health care) have the death total closer to 300,000.

Originally Posted by GGG

The difference between a response and a war is essentially the amount of civilians that die and if you consider that number acceptable or not. Unless you have a better definition you would prefer to use.

Yes, and a response can include zero civilian casualties. So saying someone is hypocritical by saying Israel has a right to respond but there is no acceptable number of civilian deaths is false, as that is a perfectly valid position to take.

[GGG]

nm

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

But I already told him ‘less than a thousand’ and the numbers in Gaza are in the 10s of thousands.

So what’s the problem here? It’s case closed.

The problem is you get upset when people talk about the number of acceptable civilian deaths. You essentially called him a war monger for discussing the concept of allowable civilian deaths when you in fact agree that there is a certain number of civilian deaths that are acceptable.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

There are different reports from international human rights organizations, but some estimates (when including people buried under rubble and indirect deaths due to starvation and lack of health care) have the death total closer to 300,000.

Yup, I've also seen higher numbers than what's being reported by the Palestinian Authority from other credible sources, like the medical journal, Lancet, who reported earlier this year that death numbers likely exceed 200,000, I believe.

[SutterBrother]

Hamas starting to face dissent from Palestinians.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ll-2024-10-08/

An opinion poll published in mid-September by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR), a think tank based in Ramallah and funded by Western donors, showed for the first time the majority of Gazans opposed the decision to attack. The poll, conducted in early September, found that 57% of people surveyed in the Gaza Strip said the decision to launch the offensive was incorrect, while just 39% said it was correct – down sharply from the previous poll in June.

Hamas has long been accused of crushing dissent in Gaza with beatings or worse. But recent months have seen some rare public displays of dissent.
Former Hamas official Ahmed Youssef Saleh took to Facebook in July to ask whether anybody in Hamas “studied and thought of the consequences” before launching an attack that invited Israel’s uncompromising invasion.

Saleh’s post has since drawn hundreds of comments, many adding their own criticism of the Islamist group. Saleh, who continues to post regularly, did not respond to requests for comment.

In July, Palestinian activist Ameen Abed, who had criticized the Oct. 7 attack, was beaten by masked men and hospitalized. His father walked through the streets of Gaza's Jabalia refugee camp using a loudspeaker to accuse Hamas of the attack.

[pepper24]

Poll shows most Canadians, but not youth, support Israel

https://nationalpost.com/news/most-c...ths-poll-finds

Students were more likely to support Hamas (21 per cent) than Israel (16 per cent). Fewer younger Canadians (only 34 per cent) were aware that Hamas has been designated a terrorist organization by the federal government. It was the reverse among senior Canadians (73 per cent). Canada listed Hamas as a terrorist entity in the Canadian Criminal Code almost 20 years ago, in November 2002.

For people working full-time, the numbers are divided 26.9 per cent for Israel and 8.9 per cent for Hamas. Among retirees that split is 44.6 per cent for Israel and 4.6 per cent for Hamas.

When it came to respondents’ political leanings, people on the left end of the spectrum were more inclined to support Hamas (24.6 per cent for Hamas and 19.7 per cent for Israel). Respondents who identified as “right” were more inclined to support Israel (62.9 per cent) versus Hamas (1.9 per cent).

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Poll shows most Canadians, but not youth, support Israel

https://nationalpost.com/news/most-c...ths-poll-finds

Students were more likely to support Hamas (21 per cent) than Israel (16 per cent). Fewer younger Canadians (only 34 per cent) were aware that Hamas has been designated a terrorist organization by the federal government. It was the reverse among senior Canadians (73 per cent). Canada listed Hamas as a terrorist entity in the Canadian Criminal Code almost 20 years ago, in November 2002.

For people working full-time, the numbers are divided 26.9 per cent for Israel and 8.9 per cent for Hamas. Among retirees that split is 44.6 per cent for Israel and 4.6 per cent for Hamas.

When it came to respondents’ political leanings, people on the left end of the spectrum were more inclined to support Hamas (24.6 per cent for Hamas and 19.7 per cent for Israel). Respondents who identified as “right” were more inclined to support Israel (62.9 per cent) versus Hamas (1.9 per cent).

That's...not what it says at all.

[TheIronMaiden]

Support Hamas? No. Think That Israel is committing genocide. Yes.

[TheIronMaiden]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1843501392344035531

Apparently this idiots name is Charlotte Kates.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

nm

[Bownesian]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's...not what it says at all.

https://acsmetropolisca-wpuploads.s3...-Hamas-War.pdf

The poll questions are pretty clear:

Hamas is considered a terrorist entity by the Government of Canada...
Do you have a positive->negative reaction to Israel/Hamas?
Do you agree with the following statement: What Hamas did in Israel on October 7 was one of the worst terrorist attacks in recent memory?
With whom do you side...
Do Jews deserve self-determination in Israel
Do Palestinians deserve self-determination West Bank/Gaza?

That Post article is a pretty straightforward reading of the results.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

https://acsmetropolisca-wpuploads.s3...-Hamas-War.pdf

The poll questions are pretty clear:

Hamas is considered a terrorist entity by the Government of Canada...
Do you have a positive->negative reaction to Israel/Hamas?
Do you agree with the following statement: What Hamas did in Israel on October 7 was one of the worst terrorist attacks in recent memory?
With whom do you side...
Do Jews deserve self-determination in Israel
Do Palestinians deserve self-determination West Bank/Gaza?

That Post article is a pretty straightforward reading of the results.

It says more Canadians support Israel (31 per cent) than support Hamas (9). That’s different from saying most Canadians support Israel. Most Canadians either don’t care, or have a ‘pox on both their houses’ attitude.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

https://acsmetropolisca-wpuploads.s3...-Hamas-War.pdf

The poll questions are pretty clear:

Hamas is considered a terrorist entity by the Government of Canada...
Do you have a positive->negative reaction to Israel/Hamas?
Do you agree with the following statement: What Hamas did in Israel on October 7 was one of the worst terrorist attacks in recent memory?
With whom do you side...
Do Jews deserve self-determination in Israel
Do Palestinians deserve self-determination West Bank/Gaza?

That Post article is a pretty straightforward reading of the results.

The pols shows that most Canadians, when given a choice between supporting an evil murderous terrorist organization with no morals, or our "ally" supposedly just defending themselves, 61% of Canadians choose to support neither, or don't know. That seems pretty damning. Do you want to eat feces, Arby's, or neither? Most people choose neither.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

Hamas starting to face dissent from Palestinians.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ll-2024-10-08/

The polls on that PSR site are interesting. They show that fewer than 40% of Palestinians want a two-state solution, and the majority support armed conflict over a negotiated solotuion. Polls from 2020, so maybe things have changes since then, but I have my doubts.

[Bownesian]

I don't see anything untrue in the article or the PDF assuming the study itself is valid, so I think you are disagreeing with something that wasn't said. The only source of spin I can see is in the questions and demographic comparisons they haven't revealed (because the raw data is not shown).

The largest numbers in most groups answered do not know/prefer not to answer for the "which group do you side with" question. Probably some people don't have an opinion out of ignorance or a fear of answering, others are truly neutral (aware but none of my business) and others are antipathicly neutral like you say.

Clearly more Canadians who have an opinion side with Israel over Hamas, regardless of your opinion.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

I don't see anything untrue in the article or the PDF assuming the study itself is valid, so I think you are disagreeing with something that wasn't said. The only source of spin I can see is in the questions and demographic comparisons they haven't revealed (because the raw data is not shown).

The largest numbers in most groups answered do not know/prefer not to answer for the "which group do you side with" question. Probably some people don't have an opinion out of ignorance or a fear of answering, others are truly neutral (aware but none of my business) and others are antipathicly neutral like you say.

Clearly more Canadians who have an opinion side with Israel over Hamas, regardless of your opinion.

I wasn't taking issue with the poll, or the article. It was Pepper's incorrect summary sentence, which I bolded to indicate that was what I was speaking to. This sentence is not what the article or polls say.

Poll shows most Canadians, but not youth, support Israel

To me, it shows Pepper is either pushing an incorrect narrative on purpose, or has poor reading comprehension.