Israel declares war on Hamas

[Looch City]

Those children voted for Hamas.

[PepsiFree]

Pretty revealing look at the reality in Gaza from someone who has actually been on the ground during this conflict. For every story like that it gets harder and harder for the far right’s endless pro-war misinformation campaign to take people in.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by GGG

Just to be clear. You think there is no amount of civilian death acceptable to kill a person regardless of the threat of the person?

The Ukraine should surrender to Russia to avoid killing civilians?

This is so boring.

I've been very clear that I think killing 10s of thousands of innocents civilians who are trapped in an open air cage is immoral. I think it should be stopped. This is the easiest question to answer on your 'Intro to Morality 101' exam.

And here you are replying 'Oh so no one is allowed to harm anyone when trying to defend themselves?!'


If you can't grasp the immorality of what the Israeli government is doing to civilians in Gaza, then it's a lost cause. Your hypothetical confirms my suspicion.

[Fuzz]

"The destruction of hospitals, the destruction of residential areas, the destruction of key civilian infrastructure is obviously not something that could be rebuilt over the next couple of years," said Daoudi, a nonresident fellow at the Washington, D.C.-based Tahrir Institute for Middle East Policy who focuses on health and conflict in the Middle East and North Africa region.

The organization previously said the overall reconstruction of Gaza is projected to cost between $40 and $50 billion US at least.

The UNDP estimates that the destruction in Gaza has caused the area's human development index — which assesses factors such as education, health and life expectancy at birth — to regress by about 40 years.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-d...ding-1.7343234

The destruction is absolutely incredible. Monstrous to do this to this many people. Absolutely monstrous. Even amongst those left alive, Israel has stolen their lives, their future, their hope. Bibi and his buddies should spend the rest of their lives in prison with a soundtrack of random bombs going off.

[TheIronMaiden]

Seems like a small consideration, but all the pollution this conflict created makes me sad.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-d...ding-1.7343234

The destruction is absolutely incredible. Monstrous to do this to this many people. Absolutely monstrous. Even amongst those left alive, Israel has stolen their lives, their future, their hope. Bibi and his buddies should spend the rest of their lives in prison with a soundtrack of random bombs going off.

If this were another nation doing this, even if the west did the same and restrained themselves from getting involved to start (which is unlikely), something would have been done by now to force a cease fire. Peace is only for those who are part of the "rules-based order" circle.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

This is so boring.

I've been very clear that I think killing 10s of thousands of innocents civilians who are trapped in an open air cage is immoral. I think it should be stopped. This is the easiest question to answer on your 'Intro to Morality 101' exam.

And here you are replying 'Oh so no one is allowed to harm anyone when trying to defend themselves?!'


If you can't grasp the immorality of what the Israeli government is doing to civilians in Gaza, then it's a lost cause. Your hypothetical confirms my suspicion.

You are the one who is objecting to their being an acceptable number of civilian deaths to take out a military target not me.

I agree with you that what the Israeli government is doing to Gazans his horrific. The reason it’s horrific and at a scale beyond comprehension is because the Israeli government does not appear to care when it kills civilians in Gaza.

You have a hypocritical position where you believe that Israel had a right to respond to Oct 7th but believe any discussion of an acceptable amount civilian death could possibly exists is not acceptable for discussion. If you believe that defensive war can exist you believe there is an acceptable civilian death rate even if that makes you uncomfortable.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GGG

You are the one who is objecting to their being an acceptable number of civilian deaths to take out a military target not me.

I agree with you that what the Israeli government is doing to Gazans his horrific. The reason it’s horrific and at a scale beyond comprehension is because the Israeli government does not appear to care when it kills civilians in Gaza.

You have a hypocritical position where you believe that Israel had a right to respond to Oct 7th but believe any discussion of an acceptable amount civilian death could possibly exists is not acceptable for discussion. If you believe that defensive war can exist you believe there is an acceptable civilian death rate even if that makes you uncomfortable.

It’s not really hypocritical, you’re conflating two different things.

Israel can have the right to respond, and the acceptable civilian casualty rate can be zero. You can also then judge their response relative to how far over the acceptable rate they go.

If the acceptable rate is zero, 1 is not equivalent in severity to or “as unacceptable” as 1000, despite both numbers being unacceptable.

You can also have a moral opposition to war but believe Israel had a right to respond. War is never the only response available.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by GGG

You are the one who is objecting to their being an acceptable number of civilian deaths to take out a military target not me.

I agree with you that what the Israeli government is doing to Gazans his horrific. The reason it’s horrific and at a scale beyond comprehension is because the Israeli government does not appear to care when it kills civilians in Gaza.

You have a hypocritical position where you believe that Israel had a right to respond to Oct 7th but believe any discussion of an acceptable amount civilian death could possibly exists is not acceptable for discussion. If you believe that defensive war can exist you believe there is an acceptable civilian death rate even if that makes you uncomfortable.

Dude, last time: I told you at the beginning of this silly number routine that my 'number' is below the number of casualties Israel suffered last October. Why? Because clearly Israel thought the number of dead that day exceeded what they could accept, labeled it a tragedy, and they responded. And if that number is good enough for Israeli lives, then it's good enough for Palestinian lives.

I can only shake my head at your obsession about what the 'actual' number is and then going off on tangents about zero deaths blah blah. Who cares if it's 997 or 539 or whatever. You going to wake up at 2 am if there are 540 dead but sleep like a baby through the night if there are 538 dead?

My point has been consistent throughout. Please stop asking for a specific number like it means anything.

[activeStick]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1843291527675850761

[CalgaryKid12]

A year later, I hope in addition to the many thousands who have lost their lives in this conflict, that we can acknowledge and remember there are still 100+ innocent people who remain hostage in Gaza.
I pray that these individuals can be reunited with their families, and we can begin a much-needed healing process for the region.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

A year later, I hope in addition to the many thousands who have lost their lives in this conflict, that we can acknowledge and remember there are still 100+ innocent people who remain hostage in Gaza.
I pray that these individuals can be reunited with their families, and we can begin a much-needed healing process for the region.

I watched a stream last night of the ceremony at Kibbutz Be’eri, whose residents were massacred a year ago by Hamas terrorists. There were several messages of support and wishes for peace from people in Iran. Imagine that.

[activeStick]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1842881876240785533

[Bagor]

Don't know why TV channels continue to give these genocidal sickos a platform to voice their lies.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Dude, last time: I told you at the beginning of this silly number routine that my 'number' is below the number of casualties Israel suffered last October. Why? Because clearly Israel thought the number of dead that day exceeded what they could accept, labeled it a tragedy, and they responded. And if that number is good enough for Israeli lives, then it's good enough for Palestinian lives.

I can only shake my head at your obsession about what the 'actual' number is and then going off on tangents about zero deaths blah blah. Who cares if it's 997 or 539 or whatever. You going to wake up at 2 am if there are 540 dead but sleep like a baby through the night if there are 538 dead?

My point has been consistent throughout. Please stop asking for a specific number like it means anything.

I didn’t ask you for a specific number this past time. I understand you are uncomfortable even discussing the concept. You called someone a war enabler because they were discussing how many civilians it was acceptable to kill. So unless your number is zero then you happen to be a hypocrite.

So spare me talks about nuance. We’re watching humans butcher other humans. Those trying to explain why it must be so are aiding and abetting the slaughter. It’s not complicated.

This is a child’s fairytale position. Innoncent people will die in war.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is a child’s fairytale position. Innoncent people will die in war.

It’s actually a perfectly valid, reasonable adult moral position. I understand you sometimes struggle with understanding and accepting different moral positions and different ways of thinking that aren’t as rigid as yours, but “no war, no civilian deaths” are very common moral positions across the world. If you normalize the acceptance of war and civilian deaths, all you’re going to get is more of both.

I think you probably just have to accept that the poster thinks your approach is actually immoral and harmful and agree to disagree. Lashing out and trying to make their moral position seem hypocritical and child-like makes you look a lot worse than I think you’re intending. You’re usually much sharper than this, but it’s getting a bit embarrassing.

[CliffFletcher]

There’s nothing hypocritical about being a pacifist. However, someone who isn’t a pacifist - who thinks war is sometimes legitimate and justified - is a hypocrite if they think war that kills civilians is always a crime. Modern warfare always kills civilians.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s actually a perfectly valid, reasonable adult moral position. I understand you sometimes struggle with understanding and accepting different moral positions and different ways of thinking that aren’t as rigid as yours, but “no war, no civilian deaths” are very common moral positions across the world. If you normalize the acceptance of war and civilian deaths, all you’re going to get is more of both.

I think you probably just have to accept that the poster thinks your approach is actually immoral and harmful and agree to disagree. Lashing out and trying to make their moral position seem hypocritical and child-like makes you look a lot worse than I think you’re intending. You’re usually much sharper than this, but it’s getting a bit embarrassing.

He hasn’t taken a no war position though. If he had said Israel has no right to respond at any point in time then I wouldn’t be beating this drum.

He believes the Ukraine can defend itself, he claims that he believes Israel can defend itself. If you believe those things then civilian deaths are a natural consequence.

And if you believe that civilian deaths are sometimes acceptable then it shouldn’t be verboten to discuss them.

[PepsiFree]

As I already pointed out, there’s actually nothing that suggests “Israel has a right to respond” is synonymous with “Israel has a right to start a war”

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There’s nothing hypocritical about being a pacifist. However, someone who isn’t a pacifist - who thinks war is sometimes legitimate and justified - is a hypocrite if they think war that kills civilians is always a crime. Modern warfare always kills civilians.

I think that this is a fair opinion, but the debate isn't whether or not some civilians dying is an acceptable part of war, the debate is, how many civilians need to be killed or displaced before the international community needs to intervene.

I know that this report is likely biased, but if it is near a whisper of the truth. Then what is happening here is more than war.

Gaza’s health ministry has identified 34,344 Palestinians killed by Israeli attacks in the territory, publishing a list of names, ages, gender and ID numbers that cover more than 80% of Palestinians killed in the war so far.

The remaining 7,613 people included in its death toll, which is now above 41,000, are Palestinians whose bodies have been received by hospitals and morgues, but whose identities have not yet been confirmed.

It does not distinguish between civilians and fighters, but a majority of the 34,344 dead can be identified as civilians based on age and gender alone. It includes 11,355 children, 2,955 people aged 60 or older, and 6,297 women. There are also many civilian men of fighting age who have been killed.

If you place this in the context that 70% of building have been destroyed and 90% of the people have been displaced. 1.9million people. This is quite a bit more than #### happens.