Israel declares war on Hamas

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Man if you think the current situation in Gaza is the ‘lesser’ of two evils, you must have some morbid thoughts.

But I suspect it’s not about dead humans for you, but more which humans are the ones that died.

The clue is probably somewhere in looking down on all the “Muslim” UN countries specifically because they’re Muslim.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Again, it isn't genocide.

The greater evil is an endless conflict. One that recurs every 5-10 years with ever increasing numerous casualties on both sides. The greater evil would be to leave Gaza in the hands of a terrorist government, that would make money of the population while doing absolutely nothing to improve the quality of life of Palestinians, and instead focuses on the destruction of Israel.

So a quick genocide is the best thing for the long term quality of life for Palestinians. How considerate.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Does Hamas have incentive to exaggerate the numbers? Does Hamas have incentive to show dead terrorists as civilians?

Do you and the IDF murderers have incentive to minimize the numbers?
Do you and the IDF have incentive to claim dead civilians as a terrorists?

You posted some opinion from some guy on a Jewish rag and claimed "it was all there."
The Lancet suggested otherwise whilst acknowledging there will never be a complegeoaccurate no., UN, WHO, land a Israel felt the numbers were credible.

It's amazing the lengths you will go to to defend genocide and deliberate murder of civilians.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

The greater evil is an endless conflict. One that recurs every 5-10 years with ever increasing numerous casualties on both sides.

I find it hard to use any word other than "naive" to describe this stance. How many kids are growing up with parents now that are completely primed to be scooped up by Hamas recruiters or whatever replaces Hamas?

This is doing absolutely nothing but fuelling the next conflict in 5-10 years. The rearmament starts as soon as things settle down, fuelled by a ton of anger of those who've lost their homes, families and friends.

The suicide bombers coming in over the next decade are orphaned kids today. This has done nothing but guarantee this conflict will persist.

[TherapyforGlencross]

I was an ally of the country of Israel at the start of the most recent conflict. When you see a headline and articles explaining the barbarity of the attacks, it’s easy to take a side, especially since I was (and still am, but I am learning) ignorant of the conflict. Then, as time goes on, I started to see the indiscriminate bombings.It first started with the hospital. It’s easy to claim “Hamas is hiding behind civilians”, but when I take a look at a map and understand the density of Gaza, how could they NOT hide within the urban centre? Gaza is literally all density lol. So, I started asking questions.

Then, I came across this article:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_arson_attack

And it opened my eyes. Such depravity. By this point, it seems some Israelis really do hate Palestinians (and this is not a blanket statement, I know a few Israelis who are very compassionate towards the Palestinian cause) At this point, my line of thinking was “both sides are reprehensible”. Which is true, Hamas is no lover. But, factor that in with the average age of a Palestinian, they were brainwashed to think a certain way. So, how can I blame them for the way they think? How could I blame a Palestinian for hating Israel when I read about the Duma Arson Attack?

And then, Israel goes into Lebanon. Fine, I think Iran plays Hezbollah as a puppet, and I’m no fan of Iran, and still am not. I still think Israel has every right to attack Iran proper back. But again, that’s now three different countries Israel has militarily fought with in the last week. Israel seems like the common denominator, no? Recent headlines say “Israel looking to create buffer zone along the edge of Lebanon”. What the ####? That’s ####ed up. It’s eerily similar to the Russian claims of a buffer zones, and I don’t stand by that, so I am a hypocrite. Israel clearly has become too emboldened. And then Insee a headline about how Israel will shoot anyone who tries to help Lebanese people trapped under the rubble. Again, so ####ed up! So, how can I be a fervor ally to Israel if I consider myself a humanist? I cannot.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross

I was an ally of the country of Israel at the start of the most recent conflict. When you see a headline and articles explaining the barbarity of the attacks, it’s easy to take a side, especially since I was (and still am, but I am learning) ignorant of the conflict. Then, as time goes on, I started to see the indiscriminate bombings.It first started with the hospital. It’s easy to claim “Hamas is hiding behind civilians”, but when I take a look at a map and understand the density of Gaza, how could they NOT hide within the urban centre? Gaza is literally all density lol. So, I started asking questions.

Then, I came across this article:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_arson_attack

And it opened my eyes. Such depravity. By this point, it seems some Israelis really do hate Palestinians (and this is not a blanket statement, I know a few Israelis who are very compassionate towards the Palestinian cause) At this point, my line of thinking was “both sides are reprehensible”. Which is true, Hamas is no lover. But, factor that in with the average age of a Palestinian, they were brainwashed to think a certain way. So, how can I blame them for the way they think? How could I blame a Palestinian for hating Israel when I read about the Duma Arson Attack?

And then, Israel goes into Lebanon. Fine, I think Iran plays Hezbollah as a puppet, and I’m no fan of Iran, and still am not. I still think Israel has every right to attack Iran proper back. But again, that’s now three different countries Israel has militarily fought with in the last week. Israel seems like the common denominator, no? Recent headlines say “Israel looking to create buffer zone along the edge of Lebanon”. What the ####? That’s ####ed up. It’s eerily similar to the Russian claims of a buffer zones, and I don’t stand by that, so I am a hypocrite. Israel clearly has become too emboldened. And then Insee a headline about how Israel will shoot anyone who tries to help Lebanese people trapped under the rubble. Again, so ####ed up! So, how can I be a fervor ally to Israel if I consider myself a humanist? I cannot.

Pretty similar to you, but my switch flipped when I saw how hard they hit Gaza with complete disregard for human life. I still try to be impartial. Israel has had a tough slog since the start of this. I keep thinking back to if the US ever backed away how screwed Israel would be. They would literally have the power of a very large chunk of the Muslim world coming down on them. Part is of their own making.

[edslunch]

Talking to an Iranian friend, they think/hope Israel won't stop until they take out the Ayatollah. While neither side is blameless, Iran is at the centre of regional instability and will be until there is a regime change.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Talking to an Iranian friend, they think/hope Israel won't stop until they take out the Ayatollah. While neither side is blameless, Iran is at the centre of regional instability and will be until there is a regime change.

There are actually a lot of Irainians at the street level that support Israel and hate the fact their government sponsors terrorism. Some of them simply because they think it's a waste of money and would rather have that money stay in Iran, and some for ideological reasons. Just based on what I have read online and the few Iranians I know, I get the sense that their government doesn't represent the will of most of the people. I know that isn't a scientific conclusion, but it is the impression I get.

It's kind of worked it's way out of the news cycle in the past year, but Iran is rocked by frequent protests. They are pretty ripe for a revolution. If they get pulled into a war, I could see massive instability in Iran.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

There are actually a lot of Irainians at the street level that support Israel and hate the fact their government sponsors terrorism. Some of them simply because they think it's a waste of money and would rather have that money stay in Iran, and some for ideological reasons. Just based on what I have read online and the few Iranians I know, I get the sense that their government doesn't represent the will of most of the people. I know that isn't a scientific conclusion, but it is the impression I get.

It's kind of worked it's way out of the news cycle in the past year, but Iran is rocked by frequent protests. They are pretty ripe for a revolution. If they get pulled into a war, I could see massive instability in Iran.

That’s what my friend says as well. Apparently the son of the former shah has surfaced as a potential opposition leader, and while the shah wasn’t universally loved, his son is seen as at least a much better option than the current regime.

[Language]

Listening to various accounts and speaking with some Iranians, it sounds like support for the regime is very low - have heard estimates ranging from 1% to 5% of the population. Majority there would be happy to see the regime toppled. I give Iranian women an incredible amount of kudos and bravery when it comes to showing their hair as an act of defiance. Many have been imprisoned or killed. It would be a great day on this planet when that terrible regime is overthrown.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ThePrince]

In no way, shape, or form does not supporting the regime mean that Iranians support Israel and their oppression of Palestinians, or would support Israel and the US carrying out that regime change.

Iranians are against the west continuing to influence politics within Iran, and would not be happy to see a war or invasion from the US or Israel, even if it means the toppling of the government. That means dead Iranians at the hands of the west, which is untenable for the people.

Iranians don’t forget the meddling that the US has done in Iran, whether that be the coup to replace a democratically elected leader back with the Shah, who was friendly with the US, or the US feeding weapons to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war, and turning a complete blind eye when Saddam used chemical weapons against the Iranians.

Put very simply, I don’t know a single Iranian who would be happy with Israel or the US doing anything domestically in Iran.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Put very simply, I don’t know a single Iranian who would be happy with Israel or the US doing anything domestically in Iran.

I know one, he is the only Iranian I know. But he doesn’t live there anymore, so might feel differently than the people who still live there.

[activeStick]

Macron says that sales of arms to Israel should be blocked. Netanyahu releases a statement condemning Macron for his call for an arms embargo, calling it a disgrace, saying Israel will win and France's shame will live on. Macron takes his statement back less than 24 hours later. Lol. Like, at least try to stick to your guns if you're going to go public with statements. It's as if Macron has a public humiliation fetish.

[Fuzz]

French man surrenders, news at 11.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

In no way, shape, or form does not supporting the regime mean that Iranians support Israel and their oppression of Palestinians, or would support Israel and the US carrying out that regime change.

Iranians are against the west continuing to influence politics within Iran, and would not be happy to see a war or invasion from the US or Israel, even if it means the toppling of the government. That means dead Iranians at the hands of the west, which is untenable for the people.

Iranians don’t forget the meddling that the US has done in Iran, whether that be the coup to replace a democratically elected leader back with the Shah, who was friendly with the US, or the US feeding weapons to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war, and turning a complete blind eye when Saddam used chemical weapons against the Iranians.

Put very simply, I don’t know a single Iranian who would be happy with Israel or the US doing anything domestically in Iran.

Yet it is a fact that there are factions in Iran that support Israel and alignment with the West.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2...sts-and-israel

Whether it is a majority or not, I don't know, but is significant at least. Keep in mind that Iran was at one time friendly with Israel. They were the second muslim majority country to recognize Israel and saw them as an important regional partner both being non-Arab countries that bordered aggressive neigbours. That ended when the religious fundamentalist took over and pushed the literal interpretation of the Quran. The thing is, young Iranians are increasingly becomeing more secular these days and are dropping their faith at alarming rates.

You also see support in Iran's diaspora community, where people don't have to worry about disappearing (as much) if they speak their mind.

https://unherd.com/2023/12/meet-the-...orting-israel/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ran-rcna151311

https://thecholent.substack.com/p/we...ent-behind-you

It's not too hard to find pictures like this all over social media.

Spoiler!

Obviously these things are nuanced and no country or ethnic group is going to have a monolithic opinion on complex matters like this. I just think a lot of people would be surprised to find out that a lot of Iranians do support Israel.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Yet it is a fact that there are factions in Iran that support Israel and alignment with the West.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2...sts-and-israel

Whether it is a majority or not, I don't know, but is significant at least. Keep in mind that Iran was at one time friendly with Israel. They were the second muslim majority country to recognize Israel and saw them as an important regional partner both being non-Arab countries that bordered aggressive neigbours. That ended when the religious fundamentalist took over and pushed the literal interpretation of the Quran. The thing is, young Iranians are increasingly becomeing more secular these days and are dropping their faith at alarming rates.

You also see support in Iran's diaspora community, where people don't have to worry about disappearing (as much) if they speak their mind.

https://unherd.com/2023/12/meet-the-...orting-israel/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ran-rcna151311

https://thecholent.substack.com/p/we...ent-behind-you

It's not too hard to find pictures like this all over social media.

Spoiler!

Obviously these things are nuanced and no country or ethnic group is going to have a monolithic opinion on complex matters like this. I just think a lot of people would be surprised to find out that a lot of Iranians do support Israel.

You googling “Iranian support for Israel” means nothing. I can cherrypick information on literally anything I want. I can also post videos of Iranians protesting in Iran and yelling “Death to America. Death to Israel”. That doesn’t mean it reflects the views of many Iranians. In fact, most Iranians want peace. They just don’t want it at the expense of Iranian lives through intervention from America or Israel.

Not sure what you’re trying to prove here with this argument because you are in WAY over your head. The Iranian people as a whole will never accept Israeli intervention in Iran, and people like you on this board trying to paint it that way are engaging in a disgusting campaign to try and justify potential attacks.

[Language]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

You googling “Iranian support for Israel” means nothing. I can cherrypick information on literally anything I want. I can also post videos of Iranians protesting in Iran and yelling “Death to America. Death to Israel”. That doesn’t mean it reflects the views of many Iranians. In fact, most Iranians want peace. They just don’t want it at the expense of Iranian lives through intervention from America or Israel.

Not sure what you’re trying to prove here with this argument because you are in WAY over your head. The Iranian people as a whole will never accept Israeli intervention in Iran, and people like you on this board trying to paint it that way are engaging in a disgusting campaign to try and justify potential attacks.

You’re the one that brought up Israel or the U.S. interfering in Iran’s affairs, as something that would never be accepted, in response to my post. When in fact, I never even mentioned Israel in my post at all. Until you brought it up, no one was even suggesting that Israel meddle in Iran’s political affairs. I think you’re giving yourself too much credit when it comes to speaking for all Iranian people and what they would and would not accept though.

However, I do agree with you, actually. It would absolutely be the best case scenario if Iranians themselves were able to overthrow the Ayatollah. As much as it’s a dirty pariah regime, it’s not up to the rest of the world to manage Iran’s internal affairs.

Your last sentence mentioned a justification for potential attacks. You know what‘s justification for potential attacks? Using your proxies to attack Israel from Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, and Gaza, as well as launching 181 ballistic missiles directly from Iranian soil. There’s more than enough justification there for Israel to respond, and they certainly will. How severe is anyone’s guess now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

You googling “Iranian support for Israel” means nothing. I can cherrypick information on literally anything I want. I can also post videos of Iranians protesting in Iran and yelling “Death to America. Death to Israel”. That doesn’t mean it reflects the views of many Iranians. In fact, most Iranians want peace. They just don’t want it at the expense of Iranian lives through intervention from America or Israel.

Not sure what you’re trying to prove here with this argument because you are in WAY over your head. The Iranian people as a whole will never accept Israeli intervention in Iran, and people like you on this board trying to paint it that way are engaging in a disgusting campaign to try and justify potential attacks.

Everyone knows about the Iranians that chant death to America because that is what most mainstream media reports on. What I am saying is that the opinions are a lot more diverse than what most people see.

I did Google search sources because typically when people make unpopular claims, people want sources. I have a strong interest in the region and followed many of these stories when they were reported, and the stories tpyically get archived on the internet, hence why I searched for them.

You said that no Iranian you ever met would have those views and insinuated that it wasn't a real thing. I am showing you that it is a real thing, and maybe the fact no Iranian you know shares this view has more to do with the company you keep.

[activeStick]

Disturbing stuff to hear from a volunteer doctor who was in Gaza, but important still to let the world know what's happening on the ground in Gaza. Next level cruel, what's happening over there.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1843081357599068267

[Fuzz]

Israel has a right to defend themselves from starving children, you know.