Israel declares war on Hamas

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Applauded? Go one better! Invite the rapist onto a TV show and applaud him there. Give him gifts for his brave act of rape.

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/0...ionist-circles

A rapist that's treated like a hero for committing rape. See you're really not unlike Hamas.

Lol, seriously dude? PressTV? The Iranian state owned news agency? You are better than that.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I keep hearing this, then I read pieces like this, and I don't know who to believe.



https://carnegieendowment.org/posts/...tizens?lang=en

Which are the Palestinian citizens of Israel? That's a serious question. The Arab citizens of Israel enjoy the same rights. Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens. They don't pay taxes to israel, nor do they have the obligations of Israeli citizens.

In regards to arabic not being an official language of Israel, I think it's politics. Almost everything in Israel including the government documents comes in 4 languages: Hebrew, English, Arabic, and Russian. If they changed that, it would be a shame and a way to appease to the right parties.

When I went to school in Israel we got to pick a 3rd language, as English was mendatory. The pick was between Arabic, French, and Russian in the school I went to.

The Arab communities/cities in Israel are generally considered more poor, and have higher crime rates. That's something that the Lapid and Bennet government tried to tackle before the last election. In fact they even had an Arab party as a part of their coalition government. One that Arab citizens of Israel voted in.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Lol, seriously dude? PressTV? The Iranian state owned news agency? You are better than that.

Agreed. Crap source. So what are you saying? That it didn't happen?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3dv18l03n1o

I just don't understand how you can justify and support killing 13 children(and others) to take out one Hamas terrorist. I guess it's easier when you don't have to look the children in their eyes just before killing them. Just numbers, not people.

I agree that killing 13 children to kill any one terrorist is not worth it. I don't see how that calculus would be accaptable. If it's true then it's probably based on bad intel.

Those are also Hamas numbers. It has been shown that Hamas makes up the numbers, in order to increase the pressure on Israel. Why admit that Israel just killed 20 terrorists when you can claim they killed 20 women and children.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Applauded? Go one better! Invite the rapist onto a TV show and applaud him there. Give him gifts for his brave act of rape.

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/0...ionist-circles

A rapist that's treated like a hero for committing rape. See you're really not unlike Hamas.

1. It wasn't an innocent Palestinian. It was a Nukhba terrorist. Hamas commando forces. The same terrorists that were the head of the spear on October 7th. They are the ones responsible for the atrocities that happened on the 7th.
2. Channel 14 is a right/far-right channel. It's essentially Bibi's propaganda channel.
3. After the atrocities there's a growing voice to those that think that Israel is being too soft on terrorists. That life in prison where they get to learn a degree, where they get plenty of food, and tvs, as well as smuggled cellphones etc is too good. Especially since Israel has exchanged numerous murderers in a deals for soldiers or soldier bodies. Personally I believe that capital punishment should be given to anyone involved in what happened in October of last year.
4. Israel is a democracy and that's why people get to have free speech, and show their opinions. In contrast to Gaza where if you voice an opinion against Hamas you disappear.
5. That soldier is still facing legal actions, despite the support he got from a part of the population.
6. Assuming it's a true story, then the people aren't applauding rape, but sending a message that rape won't be accepted as a weapon of war, and those that commit it will face the same fait. Do I condone it? No, because it's a slippery slope.
7. Finally, another debate that's going on in Israeli society is on whether those that openly disregard International Humanitarian Law like the aformentioned terrorist organizations should enjoy its protections. Again it's a slippery slope, but otherwise you're just rewarding terrorists for using human shields, taking hostages, and for deliberate direct attacks against civilians.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Agreed. Crap source. So what are you saying? That it didn't happen?

Well lets see their track record:

In December 2012, Press TV aired a report entitled "Alberta takes aboriginal kids from parents at high rate" in which Joshua Blakeney, Press TV's Calgary correspondent, claimed that Alberta's child protective services were engaged in the human trafficking of First Nations children. Blakeney stated that "Some upset parents allege that there is a profit motive behind what they refer to as Canada's so-called child protective services" and asserted that an anti-terrorism squad, called INSET, was responsible for the abductions.

One of the veiled women interviewed in the report (who was not identified) claimed that her "aboriginal children were taken by a squad of 32 police officers." Another woman interviewed stated that "It definitely is a money-making scheme, because a lot of native children have been sold into adoption, but it is also used as an assimilation program [and] a genocidal program." The report also showed written messages of "Help me! Now!!", which were allegedly written by abducted children.

Another report made several charges against the Canadian government, including:

Secret plans to "steal indigenous children";
"Ignorance of the First Nation land rights";
Jailing refugees without cause; and
using excessive force to suppress student protests.

Another program interviewed Alfred Lambremont Webre, who was described as an "international lawyer" based in Vancouver. Webre stated Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper is an "out and out Zionist" who is engaging in the "same repressive policies within Canada that Israel follows within its own territories against the Palestinian people."

Like the Kremlin, Press TV used Moscow's term "special operation" to describe the early days of the 2022 war in Ukraine. It also used headlines describing massacred civilians in Bucha as "fake attack" and "provocation" aimed at Russia.

Held in Evin Prison, Bahari was accused of spying for the CIA, MI6 and Mossad, and was detained for 118 days. Bahari alleged that a 10-second Press TV interview and 'confession' that the western media was guilty of fomenting the protests had been preceded by torture, and was given under the threat of execution. The nature of the interview, that it was a forced confession, was not disclosed to viewers of the footage.

On the subject of International Holocaust Remembrance Day (27 January), an editorial on the Press TV website in 2008 noted, "On this anniversary, we all need to mull over the faking of history and the Greatest Lie Ever Told". In 2008, The Jerusalem Post and the British Searchlight magazine criticized Press TV for reprinting on its website an article entitled "The Walls of Auschwitz: A Review of the Chemical Studies" by the British Holocaust denier Nicholas Kollerstrom which was first published by the denial group, the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH). The document claims that the Auschwitz gas chambers were used for "benign" purposes only and said "the alleged massacre of Jewish people by gassing during World War II was scientifically impossible".Press TV described Kollerstrom, by then removed as an honorary fellow of University College London (UCL) because of the article, as a "distinguished academic".

It really doesn't matter if its true or not, if you bring a source like that in I have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I agree that killing 13 children to kill any one terrorist is not worth it. I don't see how that calculus would be accaptable. If it's true then it's probably based on bad intel.

Those are also Hamas numbers. It has been shown that Hamas makes up the numbers, in order to increase the pressure on Israel. Why admit that Israel just killed 20 terrorists when you can claim they killed 20 women and children.

Of course.

Serious question for you: did you examine each October 7th casualty with the same amount of skepticism?

(I would wage my net worth that I know the answer)

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Of course.

Serious question for you: did you examine each October 7th casualty with the same amount of skepticism?

(I would wage my net worth that I know the answer)

I trust the Israeli sources a whole lot more than the Gaza health ministry figures.

Do you remember the Hamas rocket striking the Al-Ahli hospital. Everyone was quick to blame Israel for bombing a hospital. Israeli air raid on al-Ahli Arab Hospital kills 500, Gaza officials say. Were you one of those to jump to conclusions?

The Gaza Health Ministry later reported a more precise figure of 471 killed and 342 wounded.[6][7][8] A report by Human Rights Watch questioned the Health Ministry's casualty figures.[9] The Anglican Diocese of Jerusalem, which manages the hospital, reported 200 people killed. US intelligence agencies assessed a death toll between 100 and 300.

Wikipedia source

Here's an article about how the Gaza health ministry fakes casualty numbers.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Leondros

It really doesn't matter if its true or not, if you bring a source like that in I have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.

Hmmm. Truth does matter a bit.
But you're right. Crap lazy source. My bad.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I trust the Israeli sources a whole lot more than the Gaza health ministry figures.

Do you remember the Hamas rocket striking the Al-Ahli hospital. Everyone was quick to blame Israel for bombing a hospital. Israeli air raid on al-Ahli Arab Hospital kills 500, Gaza officials say. Were you one of those to jump to conclusions?



Wikipedia source

Here's an article about how the Gaza health ministry fakes casualty numbers.

Seek help.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

7. Finally, another debate that's going on in Israeli society is on whether those that openly disregard International Humanitarian Law like the aformentioned terrorist organizations should enjoy its protections. Again it's a slippery slope, but otherwise you're just rewarding terrorists for using human shields, taking hostages, and for deliberate direct attacks against civilians.

What do you think should happen to those who plant bombs in pagers that could be detonated around civilians?

That's an act of terror don't you think?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

What do you think should happen to those who plant bombs in pagers that could be detonated around civilians?

That's an act of terror don't you think?

Good question. That's an act of counter-terrorism. Those pagers weren't simply sold to anyone that could get their hands on them. The pagers were purchased by Hezbollah and distributed directly to Hezbollah terrorists as a way to convey orders.

Now there's a huge misconception about civilians being around when it comes to legitamate military targets.

Valid military targets:

• Combatants
• Military infrastructure
• Supply lines and logistics
• Weapons and ammunition

Targets like that have an NCV(non-combatant cutoff value), people like to claim that one civilian life negates any action at all, but that's just not true. NCV is the number of civilians you're legally allowed as collateral damage in order to strike.

Lawyers are a part of the process of determining the NCV, and they look at:
1. Military necessity - how essential is the military target to achieving your military objective/advantage.
2. Proportionality - the use of force must be limited to what is necessary to achieve an advantage.

The pager operation definitely provided the IDF a huge advantage by compromising the command and control structure of Hezbollah, while causing a very limited collateral damage.

[TherapyforGlencross]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I trust the Israeli sources a whole lot more than the Gaza health ministry figures.

Do you remember the Hamas rocket striking the Al-Ahli hospital. Everyone was quick to blame Israel for bombing a hospital. Israeli air raid on al-Ahli Arab Hospital kills 500, Gaza officials say. Were you one of those to jump to conclusions?



Wikipedia source

Here's an article about how the Gaza health ministry fakes casualty numbers.

From your wikipedia page, USA still thought the death toll was 100-300.

and from wikipedia:

Journalist David Zweig reported that this figure appears to have originated from a mistranslation of an Al Jazeera Arabic tweet, which is correctly translated as reporting over 500 total victims, including injuries, not 500 killed.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross

From your wikipedia page, USA still thought the death toll was 100-300.

and from wikipedia:

That would give an excuse for the news outlets, but not the Gaza health ministry numbers. You don't need AI to translate information between the hospital and the health ministry.

From the same page:

The Gaza Health Ministry later reported a more precise figure of 471 killed and 342 wounded.

[TherapyforGlencross]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

That would give an excuse for the news outlets, but not the Gaza health ministry numbers. You don't need AI to translate information between the hospital and the health ministry.

I’m unsure the point you’re trying to make. If 300 people died from a hospital bombing, what does it matter if Hamas reported 500? It’s still 300 lives taken, from a hospital…

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross

I’m unsure the point you’re trying to make. If 300 people died from a hospital bombing, what does it matter if Hamas reported 500? It’s still 300 lives taken, from a hospital…

Yes, taken by a Hamas missile, yet immediately blamed on Israel. When it's found out it's not Israel, then the numbers are lowered, and the whole thing gets forgotten.

Did you see any headlines saying Hamas rocket kills 500 in Gaza? or even 300?

My point is that you get pushed a narrative. One where Hamas gets to publish any number of casualties it would like using the Gaza Health Ministry. That's why I added the 2nd article looking into the numbers.

[TherapyforGlencross]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Yes, taken by a Hamas missile, yet immediately blamed on Israel. When it's found out it's not Israel, then the numbers are lowered, and the whole thing gets forgotten.

Did you see any headlines saying Hamas rocket kills 500 in Gaza? or even 300?

My point is that you get pushed a narrative. One where Hamas gets to publish any number of casualties it would like using the Gaza Health Ministry. That's why I added the 2nd article looking into the numbers.

Couldn’t you attribute the varying numbers to the ‘fog of war’?

[PepsiFree]

People here still make up that 1200 civilians were killed on October 7 and Israel has still destroyed almost every hospital in Gaza, killing tens of thousands of civilians with it. There’s picture and video evidence of children being shot, burned, and blown to pieces, so I’m finding it pretty suspect that someone is focused in on one hospital bomb that was Hamas, the fact that the death toll was reported by a hundred off, and claiming it as evidence that an Israeli strike probably killed 20 terrorists instead of any civilians.

There is some dark humour in this poster talking about people being “pushed a narrative.”A bit of a cowardly way to interact, I think.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Which are the Palestinian citizens of Israel? That's a serious question. The Arab citizens of Israel enjoy the same rights. Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens. They don't pay taxes to israel, nor do they have the obligations of Israeli citizens.

In regards to arabic not being an official language of Israel, I think it's politics. Almost everything in Israel including the government documents comes in 4 languages: Hebrew, English, Arabic, and Russian. If they changed that, it would be a shame and a way to appease to the right parties.

When I went to school in Israel we got to pick a 3rd language, as English was mendatory. The pick was between Arabic, French, and Russian in the school I went to.

The Arab communities/cities in Israel are generally considered more poor, and have higher crime rates. That's something that the Lapid and Bennet government tried to tackle before the last election. In fact they even had an Arab party as a part of their coalition government. One that Arab citizens of Israel voted in.

The ones in Israel proper with what you say is the same rights. Full citizens. In theory, yes, but it seems in practice, no.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross

Couldn’t you attribute the varying numbers to the ‘fog of war’?

Sure, you could, but to a point. The media is also very quick to publish headlines that blame Israel of either indiscriminate fire, or mass civilian casualties. Yet it publishes nothing when the stories turn out to be false, attributing them to honest mistakes.

The fog of war still doesn't explain the almost perfect linear growth in the casualty figures reported. At the same time having no correlation between the number of women and children, as one would expect, and a very strong inverse correlation between the number of daily men and women casualties.

It's all here