Did the US face any consequences? Were american students bullied in Canadian campuses? Any arms ambargos against the US?
Many arguments that it SHOULD have faced those consequences. The fact they didn't IMO has emboldened bad actors to do the same and gives the US and its partners no leg to stand on. The Iraq invasion is quite widely regarded as the worst foreign policy mistake of this century. Even the current President has openly regarded it as a mistake and warned Israel against doing the same and they straight up went and did it anyway. I think it would go a long way for western leaders to just verbalize the colonial mistakes of their past, ask for forgiveness and try to move forward. But everywhere people double down and blame the enemy for transgressions from decades or centuries ago and continually participate in a cycle of vengeance for the retaliation of the other.
As an American myself, it definitely carried a lot of shame with it. And yeah world wide American's were pretty reviled even in friendly countries, and continue to be. Many American's still wear Canadian flags on their gear when traveling. Not comparing it to the discrimination faced by Jewish people or Palestinians. Just answering your question, yes Americans were bullied outside of America, and it bitterly divided America itself. Pretty sure there's a comment on the most recent page of the American Politics thread about how everyone there is stupid and that's pretty much just acceptable. Which is fine. America's done a lot of bad ####. If "has done bad ####" means we can't speak out about other bad #### and is used as an excuse to do other bad #### then bad #### will just keep happening.
__________________
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Coach For This Useful Post:
I mean, Netanyahu literally held up maps at the UN without Palestine on the map he had his team create which are justified because some 7th century BCE text promised them that land. This isn't about Israel's security, it isn't about anti-semitism, it's about what they call Greater Israel, all of the territory from Jordan to the sea.
Did the US face any consequences? Were american students bullied in Canadian campuses? Any arms ambargos against the US?
The consequences to actions are based on the function of a country to retaliate.
So much like Gaza gets bombed while Iran doesn't face the same consequences the US won’t ever face those consequences. A lack of consequence isn’t a justification for action.
Students getting bullied as a result of their race/religion is not acceptable.
Too much writing to list everything. I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp on the history of the region than you do, as I actually lived there for 12 years.
Want to talk about Sadam sponsoring suicide bombings into Israel in the early 2000s? The bus bombings in the 90s? The Palestinian government paying the families of terrorists? Maybe the development of the first rockets after bombings became less than effective?
Each and every time Israel has tried to implement defensive measures. Like build fences, or then walls. Create the iron dome. Discourage the murder of Israelis by raising the houses of terrorists. Even controling the goods that enter Gaza. Each time those are brought up as tyranny, yet no one looks at why those were implemented.
This video might help your understanding a bit more why Palestinians don't have a very rosy view is Israel. Yes, it's one sided, but it shows the history that you may have missed.
I haven't had the time for a couple of days to really write a thought-out response, so apologies for the wait. The logic you're using is simply false. Let's apply it to Canada. Canada has murderers, and rapists therefore all Canadians should be treated as rapists and murderers. That's ridiculous. Why because there's also the legal system, and a society that's against it.
As far as the IDFs character it doesn't go out and murder civilians for the sake of murdering civilians no matter how many times you try to spin it that way. Showing cases where something went wrong.
How do I know the character of the IDF? I had my dad serve there, and I have cousins serving there, as well as friends. They're all great people, and they would share stories as well. My dad was in the response squad to chemical and biological weapon attacks, but half of his reservist duty was guard duty. They had very strict instructions regarding any discharge of a weapon. He didn't discharge his weapon once outside of training while on duty.
Man the pure racism in this just elbows its way to the front.
Man the pure racism in this just elbows its way to the front.
Wait... where's the racism in that post? Can you point to the explicitly racist statement, or is calling people racist just your fallback response when you're faced with an argument that you're not intellectually equipped to rebut.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Fuzzy14 For This Useful Post:
Many arguments that it SHOULD have faced those consequences. The fact they didn't IMO has emboldened bad actors to do the same and gives the US and its partners no leg to stand on. The Iraq invasion is quite widely regarded as the worst foreign policy mistake of this century. Even the current President has openly regarded it as a mistake and warned Israel against doing the same and they straight up went and did it anyway. I think it would go a long way for western leaders to just verbalize the colonial mistakes of their past, ask for forgiveness and try to move forward. But everywhere people double down and blame the enemy for transgressions from decades or centuries ago and continually participate in a cycle of vengeance for the retaliation of the other.
As an American myself, it definitely carried a lot of shame with it. And yeah world wide American's were pretty reviled even in friendly countries, and continue to be. Many American's still wear Canadian flags on their gear when traveling. Not comparing it to the discrimination faced by Jewish people or Palestinians. Just answering your question, yes Americans were bullied outside of America, and it bitterly divided America itself. Pretty sure there's a comment on the most recent page of the American Politics thread about how everyone there is stupid and that's pretty much just acceptable. Which is fine. America's done a lot of bad ####. If "has done bad ####" means we can't speak out about other bad #### and is used as an excuse to do other bad #### then bad #### will just keep happening.
It's the government's obligation to protect it's citizens. The Israeli government failed at that on the 7th. The rocket threat has been a growing issue since the early 2000s. There was no way to tackle it without boots on the ground, going through homes, and tunnels alike. They're all used for the storage of munitions.
Israel isn't trying to conquer land, or to get resources like oil. All they're attempting to do is eradicate a threat. It's not even news anymore when a rocket is fired into Israel, because Hamas or Hezbollah "disagree" with the Israeli government. That's not a reality any country can accept.
You know what I consider bad ####, that would be letting a terrorist organization rule a place like Gaza. Where they got to embed themselves in all aspects of society.
This video might help your understanding a bit more why Palestinians don't have a very rosy view is Israel. Yes, it's one sided, but it shows the history that you may have missed.
As others have told me when I posted pro Israeli content earlier in the thread - make the argument yourself. Use your own words to tell me which part of history I'm missing. I'll gladly read it, and respond as to how I learned the events in the Israeli school system.
As others have told me when I posted pro Israeli content earlier in the thread - make the argument yourself. Use your own words to tell me which part of history I'm missing. I'll gladly read it, and respond as to how I learned the events in the Israeli school system.
I'm not a historian, so I'm deferring to a quick video that covers a lot of time and details. Look, if you don't want to see the other side, just say it. Wilful ignorance might be easier to accept than the reality of what happened.
I shared it because your view seems very coloured by what you know, which seems to be lacking in the reality from the other side. Do you care to understand why an organization like Hamas could come to exist, or is it good enough to just say they are pure evil, and move on? Because if you don't understand that part, you can't avoid making more of them in the future. Which is exactly what is happening now.
It's the government's obligation to protect it's citizens. The Israeli government failed at that on the 7th. The rocket threat has been a growing issue since the early 2000s. There was no way to tackle it without boots on the ground, going through homes, and tunnels alike. They're all used for the storage of munitions.
Israel isn't trying to conquer land, or to get resources like oil. All they're attempting to do is eradicate a threat. It's not even news anymore when a rocket is fired into Israel, because Hamas or Hezbollah "disagree" with the Israeli government. That's not a reality any country can accept.
You know what I consider bad ####, that would be letting a terrorist organization rule a place like Gaza. Where they got to embed themselves in all aspects of society.
What is Israel doing in the West Bank right now that you are opposed to? Does that not apply to your statement about conquering land?
I think the problem leading to significant civilian casualties is actually a lack of boots on the ground. Only about 400 soldiers have died compared with around 20,000 civilians. It’s far safer to bomb from above and accept a high civilian casualty rate than to accept a higher military casualty rate
What do you mean? Netanyahu and his government have consistently showed their desires, which involve Israel taking over Palestine land and making it Israel.
I'm not a historian, so I'm deferring to a quick video that covers a lot of time and details. Look, if you don't want to see the other side, just say it. Wilful ignorance might be easier to accept than the reality of what happened.
I shared it because your view seems very coloured by what you know, which seems to be lacking in the reality from the other side. Do you care to understand why an organization like Hamas could come to exist, or is it good enough to just say they are pure evil, and move on? Because if you don't understand that part, you can't avoid making more of them in the future. Which is exactly what is happening now.
I don't mind seeing the other side, and I have, numerous times, yet I still disagree with a lot of it. I will most likely end up writing a very long answer about things that are misrepresented, and it will either be knitpicked, or simply dismissed with one sentence. That's why I prefer it if you put the time, as I will be putting the time to address it.
What do you mean? Netanyahu and his government have consistently showed their desires, which involve Israel taking over Palestine land and making it Israel.
All the Israeli maps show Israel as a whole, between the Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese, and Syrian borders. That's because Gaza, and the West Bank aren't actual countries.
Let's look at history: Israel returned all the land for peace deals before. Egypt, and Jordan are an example. Israel fully withdrew from Gaza, and had numerous peace offers to the Palestinians in which they would've gotten 99% of the territory back. The only city Israel won't part with for peace is the capital, Jerusalem.
Portraying it as a land grab is completely false. When Israel withdraws the majority of its forces, I expect Israel to have more of a safe zone around the fence, and next to the border crossing in Rafah.
All the Israeli maps show Israel as a whole, between the Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese, and Syrian borders. That's because Gaza, and the West Bank aren't actual countries.
Let's look at history: Israel returned all the land for peace deals before. Egypt, and Jordan are an example. Israel fully withdrew from Gaza, and had numerous peace offers to the Palestinians in which they would've gotten 99% of the territory back. The only city Israel won't part with for peace is the capital, Jerusalem.
Portraying it as a land grab is completely false. When Israel withdraws the majority of its forces, I expect Israel to have more of a safe zone around the fence, and next to the border crossing in Rafah.
That's ridiculous justification, and if the Palestinians showed a map without Israel, you'd lose it. Just admit it. It's a bad look ,and doesn't help anything.
Israel built an illegal partition wall well inside the West Bank. If they wanted a wall, they could have put it on Israeli territory. They didn't. How's that not grabbing land? Why don't they count the settlers in East Jerusalem as settlers? Don't these facts on the ground inform you of intentions at all?
As always you're trying to put words in my mouth. Either that or you're enjoying cherry picking, either that or simply trying to put my character into question yet again.
What would you consider proof that the detainee was a terrorist? Since you won't take any word of Israeli sources.
My response is how do I know it was an Israeli sniper?
So. Hypothetically then if the detainee was a terrorist rape is justified?
You also created little scenarios (such as as taunting) to excuse it.
Your words. You have conditions/scenarios where you feel rape is excusable
And regarding the deliberate murder of the elderly lady, even the IDF didn't deny it.
It appears that you will go above and beyond to excuse and deny any Israeli atrocities.
What about the little nine year old girl and paramedics that were murdered? You going to defend that too?
There is no proof that the detainee is a terrorist given the Israelis have been shown to lie at will. But that is neither here nor there. What is clear is that in certain circumstances you feel rape is excusable.
What's worth remembering here is that we're seeing only a fraction of the atrocities given that International media is not allowed in and any media in Gaza is targeted and murdered.
All the Israeli maps show Israel as a whole, between the Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese, and Syrian borders. That's because Gaza, and the West Bank aren't actual countries.
Let's look at history: Israel returned all the land for peace deals before. Egypt, and Jordan are an example. Israel fully withdrew from Gaza, and had numerous peace offers to the Palestinians in which they would've gotten 99% of the territory back. The only city Israel won't part with for peace is the capital, Jerusalem.
Portraying it as a land grab is completely false. When Israel withdraws the majority of its forces, I expect Israel to have more of a safe zone around the fence, and next to the border crossing in Rafah.
Definitely disagree. Gaza and the West Bank are a reality. They are there and they are important parts of the region even if they aren't countries. Given the context of what's currently happening in the region and what was happening at the time he held those photos up, showing those maps without the territories was him telling the world again their ultimate goals for the region. It's really messed up.
That's ridiculous justification, and if the Palestinians showed a map without Israel, you'd lose it. Just admit it. It's a bad look ,and doesn't help anything.
Israel built an illegal partition wall well inside the West Bank. If they wanted a wall, they could have put it on Israeli territory. They didn't. How's that not grabbing land? Why don't they count the settlers in East Jerusalem as settlers? Don't these facts on the ground inform you of intentions at all?
The Palestinians often show maps without Israel. As long as they don't call for the murder of all Jews or tell Jews to get back to Poland I don't care. How does it prove a land grab?
As for the 2nd part, the West Bank is divided into A,B, and C territories. They were outlined by the Oslo accords and were meant to be temporary. Area C is administered and policed by Israel, for security reasons, and the closeness to other Israeli cities. That's not a land grab that's security. And yes I'd rather they do it this way to deal with terrorists instead of evacuating entire cities.
The settlers are a problem in the aforementioned C territories. As I said before I'm fully against any settlements.
The Palestinians often show maps without Israel. As long as they don't call for the murder of all Jews or tell Jews to get back to Poland I don't care. How does it prove a land grab?
As for the 2nd part, the West Bank is divided into A,B, and C territories. They were outlined by the Oslo accords and were meant to be temporary. Area C is administered and policed by Israel, for security reasons, and the closeness to other Israeli cities. That's not a land grab that's security. And yes I'd rather they do it this way to deal with terrorists instead of evacuating entire cities.
The settlers are a problem in the aforementioned C territories. As I said before I'm fully against any settlements.
I mean, the size of area C(over 60%), and that many of it isn't proximal to Israeli cities kind of indicates that's just a BS line that is used to justify illegal actions.
Wait... where's the racism in that post? Can you point to the explicitly racist statement, or is calling people racist just your fallback response when you're faced with an argument that you're not intellectually equipped to rebut.
1. The guy makes some statement about 'oh, if one Canadian did a bad act would that mean every Canadian is bad? hmmmmm?' comments but replace Canadians with Palestinians and you know what his response will be. Replace Canadians with Israelis and you know what his response will be. It's not data driven, it's identity driven. Guess what it is when you let someone's identity determine your judgment.
2. If an Israeli reported rape, his a priori assumption would be that someone nefarious is guilty of the act. What was his assumption about the Palestinian raped? He sat on a broomstick out of joy. Why the presumption of guilt for one group and not the other?
3. He says that despite the evidence the IDF surely isn't doing bad stuff in a premeditated and/or systematic way. How does he know? Because a bunch of people who he likes, who may be family or acquiantances, and who are like him, are part of the IDF. And that's why the IDF is, on the whole, very moral. What is it called when you make positive assumptions about people who look like you and/or you identify with when you are clear on your negative assumptions around people who don't look like you or that you don't identify with?
He's putting it out there very clearly. It's not complicated.
So. Hypothetically then if the detainee was a terrorist rape is justified?
You also created little scenarios (such as as taunting) to excuse it.
Your words. You have conditions/scenarios where you feel rape is excusable
And regarding the deliberate murder of the elderly lady, even the IDF didn't deny it.
It appears that you will go above and beyond to excuse and deny any Israeli atrocities.
What about the little nine year old girl and paramedics that were murdered? You going to defend that too?
There is no proof that the detainee is a terrorist given the Israelis have been shown to lie at will. But that is neither here nor there. What is clear is that in certain circumstances you feel rape is excusable.
What's worth remembering here is that we're seeing only a fraction of the atrocities given that International media is not allowed in and any media in Gaza is targeted and murdered.
No rape isn't justified. That's what I said. I also said that actions have consequences, and the soldiers would need to deal with them. Stop trying to spin things and work on your reading comprehension.
I didn't know the IDF denied every potential case, likely they wouldn't have proof one way or the other.
Don't know the 9 year old or the paramedics. Never heard the story.
