Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fuzz]

So you are suggesting visiting monstrous acts on humans might cause other humans to commit monstrous acts in revenge? Hrmmm...interesting thoughts...

[PepsiFree]

Talking about how you’re a good judge of character and then empathizing with why someone would rape someone else is a truly wild set of back to back posts.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I already replied to that.

Here's the article I read in August.The title says: "The hospitals opinion: "The wounds were self inflicted"".

You forgot to mention the bit that it is a defence witness and there article states that:

"However, it is important to note that the expert did not examine the terrorist and relied on the defense documents."

And you didn't reply to it you stated that there were more recent articles.

Originally Posted by gvitaly

EDIT/UPDATE: It seems I have been a bit out of date on the story, as google showed a bunch more articles in September. I last followed it up in July, where there were still the medical report of the wounds being self-inflicted.

All you presented was some opinion of a defence witness based of him reading some defence documents.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So you are suggesting visiting monstrous acts on humans might cause other humans to commit monstrous acts in revenge? Hrmmm...interesting thoughts...

Nice fly by as always. Exactly why you shouldn't attempt to commit those monstrous acts against the guy with the bigger stick.

For some reason Hamas gets to be monstrous towards its own people, and doesn't face monstrous acts back. Hezbollah gets to oppress the Lebanese people, and that's fine. Iran gets to kill anyone that's against their government and no one fights back. How about Asad killing a bunch of civilians in Syria? As an aside you don't really care about those either, because it isn't Israel.

The reason not of those groups fight back is because no one is sponsoring them, or supplying them with weapons. Yet it's fine to supply Hamas and Hezbollah so that they keep peppering Israel with rockets. That's exactly why Israel should completely dismantle the Hamas, and enforce no other militant force takes it's place.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Not making excuses,but I could see what would push the soldiers to such as act. The Nokhba are the group responsible for countless rapes and executions on the 7th. If that terrorist, for example bragged about any of it, then I could see how it would push a person over the edge, and blur what would be the right thing to do. Actions still have consequences, so I would expect those soldiers to sit in prison for several years for such an act.

You're the first and (hopefully the last) person I've ever met that has tried to excuse rape. Makings up little scenarios where the rape might be excused.

Asides from you and IDF do you have any proof the detainee was a terrorist or is this just a something that justifies rape?

You're something elsewhere. Shown a video of an elderly lady being taken out by a sniper and your response is how do well know she didn't trip? Now empathizing with rapists.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Nice fly by as always. Exactly why you shouldn't attempt to commit those monstrous acts against the guy with the bigger stick.

For some reason Hamas gets to be monstrous towards its own people, and doesn't face monstrous acts back. Hezbollah gets to oppress the Lebanese people, and that's fine. Iran gets to kill anyone that's against their government and no one fights back. How about Asad killing a bunch of civilians in Syria? As an aside you don't really care about those either, because it isn't Israel.

The reason not of those groups fight back is because no one is sponsoring them, or supplying them with weapons. Yet it's fine to supply Hamas and Hezbollah so that they keep peppering Israel with rockets. That's exactly why Israel should completely dismantle the Hamas, and enforce no other militant force takes it's place.

Not a "fly by" it was offering you a chance to stop and think about why Israel is in the situation it is, and how it's actions got it there, with a little clue form your own post. Maybe pause and think on that instead of getting all defensive.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Nice fly by as always. Exactly why you shouldn't attempt to commit those monstrous acts against the guy with the bigger stick.

For some reason Hamas gets to be monstrous towards its own people, and doesn't face monstrous acts back. Hezbollah gets to oppress the Lebanese people, and that's fine. Iran gets to kill anyone that's against their government and no one fights back. How about Asad killing a bunch of civilians in Syria? As an aside you don't really care about those either, because it isn't Israel.

The reason not of those groups fight back is because no one is sponsoring them, or supplying them with weapons. Yet it's fine to supply Hamas and Hezbollah so that they keep peppering Israel with rockets. That's exactly why Israel should completely dismantle the Hamas, and enforce no other militant force takes it's place.

Why do you keep comparing Israel to Hamas, Hezbolah, Syria or Iran? Is that the standard you hold Israel too? Better than Hamas? Israel is a 1st world liberal democracy. Holding them to the standards of other liberal democracies is reasonable.

The reason you don’t hear people continually calling out those organizations is that no one is trying to justify their behaviour. Every attack by Hamas or Hezbolah is condemned. Start a thread justifying any above the above countries actions and see the results. The concern of many in this thread is Israel’s care for Civilians in these attacks is not sufficient. Too many civilians die in the war against these peoples which is not acceptable given the asymmetric powers fighting the war.

They choose to kill civilians rather than risk Israeli soldiers.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

You're the first and (hopefully the last) person I've ever met that has tried to excuse rape. Makings up little scenarios where the rape might be excused.

Asides from you and IDF do you have any proof the detainee was a terrorist or is this just a something that justifies rape?

You're something elsewhere. Shown a video of an elderly lady being taken out by a sniper and your response is how do well know she didn't trip? Now empathizing with rapists.

As always you're trying to put words in my mouth. Either that or you're enjoying cherry picking, either that or simply trying to put my character into question yet again.

What would you consider proof that the detainee was a terrorist? Since you won't take any word of Israeli sources.

My response is how do I know it was an Israeli sniper?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Not a "fly by" it was offering you a chance to stop and think about why Israel is in the situation it is, and how it's actions got it there, with a little clue form your own post. Maybe pause and think on that instead of getting all defensive.

I do know how we got there.

Arabs lose a war they started. Then they want the territory back. Start another war. Rinse and repeat. At the same time the Arabs that then turned into the Palestinians didn't want to join and become Israeli citizens. Instead they get to pass their refugee status for generations.

The Palestinians had numerous opportunities to accept a peace deal. Instead we keep coming back to "it's us or them". That's not a side you can negotiate with.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I do know how we got there.

Arabs lose a war they started. Then they want the territory back. Start another war. Rinse and repeat. At the same time the Arabs that then turned into the Palestinians didn't want to join and become Israeli citizens. Instead they get to pass their refugee status for generations.

The Palestinians had numerous opportunities to accept a peace deal. Instead we keep coming back to "it's us or them". That's not a side you can negotiate with.

If that is your understanding of what is happening, then it's no surprise you are unable to understand the reactions to Israel's actions. I suggest doing a lot of research, because you've clearly missed some pretty big pieces.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by GGG

Why do you keep comparing Israel to Hamas, Hezbolah, Syria or Iran? Is that the standard you hold Israel too? Better than Hamas? Israel is a 1st world liberal democracy. Holding them to the standards of other liberal democracies is reasonable.

The reason you don’t hear people continually calling out those organizations is that no one is trying to justify their behaviour. Every attack by Hamas or Hezbolah is condemned. Start a thread justifying any above the above countries actions and see the results. The concern of many in this thread is Israel’s care for Civilians in these attacks is not sufficient. Too many civilians die in the war against these peoples which is not acceptable given the asymmetric powers fighting the war.

They choose to kill civilians rather than risk Israeli soldiers.

I'm comparing them this way because it's faster, because the other side is all too quick to excuse those organizations.

If you want feel free to compare Israel no the US, Canada, or NATO. Should we examine the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Should we look into facilities like Guantanamo Bay?

What realistically should Israel do differently, without rewarding the terrorists they're fighting for their tactics? Moreover note that the West's tactics when fighting terrorists are largely ineffective.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I'm comparing them this way because it's faster, because the other side is all too quick to excuse those organizations.

If you want feel free to compare Israel no the US, Canada, or NATO. Should we examine the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Should we look into facilities like Guantanamo Bay?

What realistically should Israel do differently, without rewarding the terrorists they're fighting for their tactics? Moreover note that the West's tactics when fighting terrorists are largely ineffective.

What “other side” is excusing Hamas actions. Quit arguing strawmen.

Yes we should examine the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq was a completely unnessary war with no justification and led to millions dead and displaced and the strengthening of terrorist organizations. Yes we should look at Afganistan and the Obama drone campaign and examine the acceptable numbers of civilian casualties to accomplish these objectives and yes we should condemn torture at Guantanamo Bay. Are you suggesting the torture at Guantanamo was justified?

What realistically? Treat Gaza like they do Iran. Limited assassinations with very careful calculus on the civilian damage. Reduce the acceptable number of civilian casualties to kill a Hamas member, continue there exceptional intelligence work and defensive focus to ensure casualties are limited. Stop expanding into the West Bank.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If that is your understanding of what is happening, then it's no surprise you are unable to understand the reactions to Israel's actions. I suggest doing a lot of research, because you've clearly missed some pretty big pieces.

Too much writing to list everything. I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp on the history of the region than you do, as I actually lived there for 12 years.

Want to talk about Sadam sponsoring suicide bombings into Israel in the early 2000s? The bus bombings in the 90s? The Palestinian government paying the families of terrorists? Maybe the development of the first rockets after bombings became less than effective?

Each and every time Israel has tried to implement defensive measures. Like build fences, or then walls. Create the iron dome. Discourage the murder of Israelis by raising the houses of terrorists. Even controling the goods that enter Gaza. Each time those are brought up as tyranny, yet no one looks at why those were implemented.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Too much writing to list everything. I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp on the history of the region than you do, as I actually lived there for 12 years.

Want to talk about Sadam sponsoring suicide bombings into Israel in the early 2000s? The bus bombings in the 90s? The Palestinian government paying the families of terrorists? Maybe the development of the first rockets after bombings became less than effective?

Each and every time Israel has tried to implement defensive measures. Like build fences, or then walls. Create the iron dome. Discourage the murder of Israelis by raising the houses of terrorists. Even controling the goods that enter Gaza. Each time those are brought up as tyranny, yet no one looks at why those were implemented.

Do you think Israeli settlements in the West Bank help or hinder the peace process?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by GGG

What “other side” is excusing Hamas actions. Quit arguing strawmen.

Yes we should examine the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq was a completely unnessary war with no justification and led to millions dead and displaced and the strengthening of terrorist organizations. Yes we should look at Afganistan and the Obama drone campaign and examine the acceptable numbers of civilian casualties to accomplish these objectives and yes we should condemn torture at Guantanamo Bay. Are you suggesting the torture at Guantanamo was justified?

What realistically? Treat Gaza like they do Iran. Limited assassinations with very careful calculus on the civilian damage. Reduce the acceptable number of civilian casualties to kill a Hamas member, continue there exceptional intelligence work and defensive focus to ensure casualties are limited. Stop expanding into the West Bank.

I'm not suggesting torture at Guantanamo is justified. It's just that all those 1st world liberal democracies aren't any better when it comes to war. I didn't see anyone telling the US not to invade those countries after 9/11.

I'm suggesting that you're trying to paint war as something that can be surgical. No war is ever won without boots on the ground. Surgical strikes only have another commander replaced. They're only good to create chaos for a limited amount of time.

Also the surgical strikes would leave the hostages in Gaza indefinitely. Surgical strike would lead to an execution of a hostage. That or the leadership would surround themselves with hostages like Sinewar did/does.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I'm not suggesting torture at Guantanamo is justified. It's just that all those 1st world liberal democracies aren't any better when it comes to war. I didn't see anyone telling the US not to invade those countries after 9/11.

Are you sure about that?

The invasion of Iraq was extremely controversial and unpopular.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Do you think Israeli settlements in the West Bank help or hinder the peace process?

Absolutely hinder, and many Israelis feel that way. They're illegal, it's religious fanatics that construct them. Unfortunately while Likud is in power, they won't be removed as their political partners support them.

That said, the C territories are vital for security as long as Palestinians remain hostile. The problem is the short distances to major population centers. I think that all those territories should be given back if a peace deal can be reached.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I'm not suggesting torture at Guantanamo is justified. It's just that all those 1st world liberal democracies aren't any better when it comes to war. I didn't see anyone telling the US not to invade those countries after 9/11.

I'm suggesting that you're trying to paint war as something that can be surgical. No war is ever won without boots on the ground. Surgical strikes only have another commander replaced. They're only good to create chaos for a limited amount of time.

Also the surgical strikes would leave the hostages in Gaza indefinitely. Surgical strike would lead to an execution of a hostage. That or the leadership would surround themselves with hostages like Sinewar did/does.

Then you weren't really paying attention. Our PM was one example.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Coach

Are you sure about that?

The invasion of Iraq was extremely controversial and unpopular.

Did the US face any consequences? Were american students bullied in Canadian campuses? Any arms ambargos against the US?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Absolutely hinder, and many Israelis feel that way. They're illegal, it's religious fanatics that construct them. Unfortunately while Likud is in power, they won't be removed as their political partners support them.

That said, the C territories are vital for security as long as Palestinians remain hostile. The problem is the short distances to major population centers. I think that all those territories should be given back if a peace deal can be reached.

More feel the other way, though. 49% is pretty much half.

Israelis are divided on the effect of continuing to construct settlements in the West Bank: 40% say they help Israeli security, 35% say they hurt, and 21% say they don’t make a difference. (The remainder are unsure or decline to answer.)


Jewish Israelis are much more likely than Arab Israelis to view settlements as helping the country’s security (49% vs. 8%). Indeed, two-thirds of Israeli Arabs say these settlements hurt Israeli security – a position also taken by 26% of Israeli Jews.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2...ast-jerusalem/