Russia invades Ukraine

[peter12]

The Chally 2s are pretty interesting. They have a completely different loading system than other NATO tanks (two part ammunition). That said, they are a good modern tank with a nice bloody big gun that will knock a lot of turrets off of Russian garbage tanks.

The Bradleys with TOW2 are also going to be amazing.

[IliketoPuck]

And that's just the first 50 Bradleys. The US is also going to be including Stryker's in upcoming packages as well.

There's hundreds more of both that will be sent.

Canada is also buying a NASAMS from the Americans for Ukraine.

It'll be interesting to see where Ukraine strikes in the spring.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

It's sounding like Challenger tanks are on the way as well.

Wondering what the final tally of heavy weaponry is going to look like following the Jan 20th meetings.

Clearly setting the groundwork for a spring/summer offensive.

50 Bradleys
Marders
APX
14+ Leopards
Challengers
M113 & HMMWV

Russian conscripts are going to be having an even rougher time quite soon.

There's very probably going to be more Leopards sent from other countries. Finland for example has around 100 of them, and there's been lots of speculation about sending them even before it was possible.

Now that it's possible, it's likely only a question of how many Leopards. There might not be an official announcement though, as plenty hardware that's never been officially donated has just mysteriously appeared in Ukraine with Finnish markings on them. I'm guessing it's partly out of political convenience and partly to keep the Russians guessing.

In fact I would not be surprised that exact numbers are kept mostly secret. Russian intelligence will at least have to work for that info.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

It's sounding like Challenger tanks are on the way as well.

Wondering what the final tally of heavy weaponry is going to look like following the Jan 20th meetings.

Clearly setting the groundwork for a spring/summer offensive.

50 Bradleys
Marders
APX
14+ Leopards
Challengers
M113 & HMMWV

Russian conscripts are going to be having an even rougher time quite soon.

Please cross the 113's off the list.

They are taxi's nothing else.

[IliketoPuck]

Better than a Toyota

UCB what are your thoughts on the recent tranches of weapons being sent?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Better than a Toyota

UCB what are your thoughts on the recent tranches of weapons being sent?

My knowledge is old......but

50 Bradleys - Wish there were more. I've never worked with them, but by all accounts they are exceptional and combat proven. Let's hope the US send as many as possible

Marders - might be a bit long in the tooth, but my experience working with them is they are a great vehicle. When we were putting around in 113's others were ripping past us in Marders.

14+ Leopards & Challengers - Two of the best tanks in the world. Sure there are some warts, but man there isn't a better MTB rolling around in Ukraine. Couple this with NATO training and yeah.....there will be trouble for Ivan.

M113 & HMMWV - taxi's nothing more.

[Firebot]

There's a video making the rounds on social media from a Russian sneaking up behind 2 Ukrainian soldiers in their fox hole (3rd had died from a grenade) clearly shell shocked, and getting killed point blank range after a brief conversation with the Russian. It appears that the Russian was a Wagner merc may have been wearing a Ukrainian uniform (not confirmed) which confused the Ukrainian soldiers, which is yet another war crime. I won't post the video for obvious reason. Wagner are reported to be using Ukrainian uniforms in the Solidar attack, one of the factors why they made a breakthrough there.

While Solidar is not fully in Russian hands, the stories from there are quite dire (soldiers having all 10 toes amputed due to frostbite, etc).

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Firebot

There's a video making the rounds on social media from a Russian sneaking up behind 2 Ukrainian soldiers in their fox hole (3rd had died from a grenade) clearly shell shocked, and getting killed point blank range after a brief conversation with the Russiam. It appears that the Russian was a Wagner merc likely wearing a Ukrainian uniform which confused the Ukrainian soldiers, which is yet another war crime. I won't post the video for obvious reason. Wagner are reported to be using Ukrainian uniforms in the Solidar attack, one of the factors why they made a breakthrough there.

While Solidar is not fully in Russian hands, the stories from there are quite dire (soldiers having all 10 toes amputed due to frostbite, etc).

At the end of all this, The Battle of Bakhmut & surrounding area will be stack up against some WW2 battle for suffering and ferocity.

Terrifying ####.

[Firebot]

Also

https://twitter.com/user/status/1613228561036414980

Seems something is up on the Russian side.

[undercoverbrother]

As of Jan 11 according to Ukraine

[Itse]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

M113 & HMMWV - taxi's nothing more.

Not as sexy as tanks, but motorized infantry is still important. It's also something Ukraine specifically wants and needs for their planned spring offensive.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Itse

Not as sexy as tanks, but motorized infantry is still important. It's also something Ukraine specifically wants and needs for their planned spring offensive.

Front and center during the Kharkiv offensive. Lightning speed was the decisive factor in them maintaining as much momentum as they did.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

At the end of all this, The Battle of Bakhmut & surrounding area will be stack up against some WW2 battle for suffering and ferocity.

Terrifying ####.

Battle of Bakhmut is about to pass Battle of Stalingrad in length as we speak. Both are currently 5 months, 1 week and 3 days according to Wikipedia. It's already longer than any ground battle US military has ever fought.

(If you count the battle starting from when Russians started shelling Bakhmut, that was in May.)

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Itse

Not as sexy as tanks, but motorized infantry is still important. It's also something Ukraine specifically wants and needs for their planned spring offensive.

Too many people view the M113 as a IFV, it isn't. (I am not saying that is exactly what you are saying per se) It is an APC, a armoured military vehicle designed to transport troops & equipment into a combat zone, in essence a Taxi. They don't deploy troops on the objective.

An IFV will provide close fire support (think Bradley or Marder), they deploy the infantry and close with & destroy the enemy with the infantry (a very simplistic description)

I was actually going to post that of the two I'd take a Hummer, at least you have speed and maneuverability. That is why they get used in Thunder Runs, but the US was finding the Hummers were so heavily armoured up that they were losing their speed and maneuverability.

In short, M113 & Hummer while good are vastly inferior to IFVs, IMO.

#coolstorybro, we had some 113s that could do max 20-30km/hr up hill when I was deployed. That is ####ing stupid. I have seen examples of dudes running up the hill to get away from the slow moving target, in a war zone people shot at slow moving poorly armoured targets.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Itse

Battle of Bakhmut is about to pass Battle of Stalingrad in length as we speak. Both are currently 5 months, 1 week and 3 days according to Wikipedia. It's already longer than any ground battle US military has ever fought.

(If you count the battle starting from when Russians started shelling Bakhmut, that was in May.)

At this rate they will catch Verdun.

[CroFlames]

Why is Bakhmut turning into such a stalemate for both sides?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Why is Bakhmut turning into such a stalemate for both sides?

####ty terrain is usually the main cause for situations like this. As neither side has any clear air superiority, it's essentially artillery and people and not much else.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Too many people view the M113 as a IFV, it isn't. (I am not saying that is exactly what you are saying per se) It is an APC, a armoured military vehicle designed to transport troops & equipment into a combat zone, in essence a Taxi. They don't deploy troops on the objective.

An IFV will provide close fire support (think Bradley or Marder), they deploy the infantry and close with & destroy the enemy with the infantry (a very simplistic description)

I was actually going to post that of the two I'd take a Hummer, at least you have speed and maneuverability. That is why they get used in Thunder Runs, but the US was finding the Hummers were so heavily armoured up that they were losing their speed and maneuverability.

In short, M113 & Hummer while good are vastly inferior to IFVs, IMO.

#coolstorybro, we had some 113s that could do max 20-30km/hr up hill when I was deployed. That is ####ing stupid. I have seen examples of dudes running up the hill to get away from the slow moving target, in a war zone people shot at slow moving poorly armoured targets.

I doubt there's any debate on M113 and Hummer being inferior to IFV's, it's why I specifically said motorized infantry (instead of for example mechanized) because I'm quite aware that these are not for fighting.

I guess you could compare this stuff to donating things like helmets and vests. It doesn't sound like much, but it's still absolutely crucial stuff when we're talking the big picture of war. Especially on the offensive, you want all the troop movement capability you can get, and you're a lot more likely to get enough troops to where they need to be if they're driving M113s and Hummers instead of Kleinbuses and HiAces.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Why is Bakhmut turning into such a stalemate for both sides?

Russia is running out of gear so it doesn't have the overmatch of force to break the Ukraine defenders, it has bodies though so it is sending waves of troops to be shot to pieces, Ukraine has never had the gear and numbers to attack into large Russian numbers, they are content to just hold the town and allow the Russians to grind themselves into exhaustion.

As unsexy as it is this is likely where historians say Russia lost the war in the end

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Why is Bakhmut turning into such a stalemate for both sides?

It's not a symmetrical stalemate.

Russia is consistently gaining ground, so from that sense they are "winning". It's the only front where they've consistently gained ground in the last months, so they're not ready to give up, despite the front moving forward at a WW1 pace.

Ukraine on the other hand is very likely draining a lot more resources from the Russians than what they themselves are committing, so in that sense they're "winning" and have no reason to give up.

Additionally, since Russia has placed a lot of forces in Bakhmut, driving them off would be difficult and costly if not impossible, and since Bakhmut doesn't really hold any huge strategic significance at this point, there's been no reason for Ukraine to commit enough troops there to completely drive off the Russian offensive.

So the battle continues. I would however call it more of an ongoing Ukrainian defensive win than a stalemate.