40th Canadian Federal Election - Welcome to another Conservative Minority (whee!)

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Your absolutely right...the NDP will never form a government.

MOST Canadians are centrist, and thats the reason the Cons wont get the majority until they move their platform slightly more to the middle. That is also the reason why the Liberals wont take away the Minority or form their own government, they have moved to far to the left. Once they figure that out again and move back to centre, the Cons will be an Alberta Party once again.

If you don't consider the Conservatives to be "centrist", but you do consider the Liberals to be, than you can't say most Canadians are centrist either. In fact, I don't think a majority of Canadians have ever voted Liberal in any election.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

If you don't consider the Conservatives to be "centrist", but you do consider the Liberals to be, than you can't say most Canadians are centrist either. In fact, I don't think a majority of Canadians have ever voted Liberal in any election.

I said MOST Canadians...that doesnt have to be a majority in Canada with the number of parties we have.
You cant argue history. The Cons package just does not sell outside of Alberta.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I said MOST Canadians...that doesnt have to be a majority in Canada with the number of parties we have.
You cant argue history. The Cons package just does not sell outside of Alberta.

Kinda like the Liberal package doesn't sell west of the Manitoba border.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I said MOST Canadians...that doesnt have to be a majority in Canada with the number of parties we have.
You cant argue history.

You might want to open a dictionary and read what the word "most" means.

If there is one "centrist" party, and that one party has never gained a majority of votes, then no, "most" Canadians are not centrist, regardless of how many other parties exist.

In fact, if you go by the 2006 election, not even a third of Canadians are "centrist".

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

If you don't consider the Conservatives to be "centrist", but you do consider the Liberals to be, than you can't say most Canadians are centrist either. In fact, I don't think a majority of Canadians have ever voted Liberal in any election.

+1, If the Liberals are considered the bellweather for what's considered centrist in this country, than on a continental basis the entire country is collectively centre left.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Kinda like the Liberal package doesn't sell west of the Manitoba border.

Except in Saskatchewan, BC and in Edmonton?

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Kinda like the Liberal package doesn't sell west of the Manitoba border.

If you look at Manitoba in the 2000 election:

Lib: 5
NDP: 4
CA: 4
PC: 1

So even if you group PC/CA, it is still a pretty even split.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/ab...submit1=Search

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

If you don't consider the Conservatives to be "centrist", but you do consider the Liberals to be, than you can't say most Canadians are centrist either. In fact, I don't think a majority of Canadians have ever voted Liberal in any election.

Who are you to say what's centrist and what's not?

Centrist is the median of any given electorate. The electorate's attitudes to a bevy of issues determines what the centre is.

[Russic]

Well, I just got back from the polling station. Civic duty for the win! Seeing as I'm in Stephen Harper's riding I'm forced to make a little game of it to make things seem interesting. For me Calgary Southwest is the guy in the Calgary 420 Cannabis Association versus the guy who put pictures of aborted fetuses on his webpage. Let's get it on!

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Who are you to say what's centrist and what's not?

Centrist is the median of any given electorate. The electorate's attitudes to a bevy of issues determines what the centre is.

Ahh yes, I was wondering when one of the Liberal Party chickenhawks would join in.

Read the string again, Mr. Pagan. I'm going off Cheese's arguments.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You might want to open a dictionary and read what the word "most" means.

If there is one "centrist" party, and that one party has never gained a majority of votes, then no, "most" Canadians are not centrist, regardless of how many other parties exist.

In fact, if you go by the 2006 election, not even a third of Canadians are "centrist".

Again...dictionairies notwithstanding, Most of the votes garnered to get elected in Canada are split between 4 parties and those interested enough to get off their collective a$$ and vote.
Spin it any way you want, the Liberals are closer to centre than the Cons hence their ability to garner the MOST votes needed to win the MOST seats needed to hold power for MOST of the last 35-40 years?
Even with a Liberal party in total disarray and a leader that is distasteful to most Canadians, the Cons still cant move enough voters further to the right to get a majority.

[Resolute 14]

See, now you are backpeddling and reinventing your argument, Cheese. Certainly the Liberal party has gotten the MOST out of our current electoral system. Your initial statement remains completely invalid, however.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You might want to open a dictionary and read what the word "most" means.

If there is one "centrist" party, and that one party has never gained a majority of votes, then no, "most" Canadians are not centrist, regardless of how many other parties exist.

In fact, if you go by the 2006 election, not even a third of Canadians are "centrist".

"Never" is a long time, even in Canadian politics. Wilfred Laurier's Liberals won 50.25% of the popular vote in 1900, and 50.88% in 1904. McKenzie King won 51% of the popular vote in 1940. Not to be a smarty-pants or anything.

The P.C.s have won majorities a handful of times too--but for the most part governing parties work on a slim plurality of the popular vote--so it's a bit of a goofy standard to apply. Liberals have formed the government more often than any other party, and most of the time have done so with between 43 and 49% of the popular vote. The fact is, our first-past-the-post system doesn't really account for "majority" consensus--and what Cheese is (I think) arguing is that the Liberals, having achieved pluralities more often than other parties, represent a nominal "center" anyway. And for the most part I think that's right--in fact, I'd say "centrism" and "moderation" are key aspects of Canadian political values, and if the CPC wants to form a majority, they'd be well advised to keep that in mind.

[Cheese]

No backpeddling here...its a fact that MOST Canadians are centrist. Are you suggesting they are other? Specifically are you suggesting they are right wing?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I said MOST Canadians...that doesnt have to be a majority in Canada with the number of parties we have.
You cant argue history. The Cons package just does not sell outside of Alberta.

They are leading the Liberals in Ontario... last I heard.

[octothorp]

I think a lot of the reason that the Liberals are the centrist party in Canada has a lot to do with the way they've handled the brand. The two parties were essentially equal in support prior to the emerge of the first true 3rd parties in 1921. Of course, the influx of immigrants was bringing a lot of radical ideas, particularly to Western Canada. So with both left and right political parties forming, support started to drain from both major parties, but particularly the Conservatives. Their approach was to move further right, borrowing platform items from and eventually merging with the Progressive Party. But this caused the more centrist of the conservative supporters to drift to the Liberal Party. This is almost an exact mirror of what happened in the 1990s. Rather than let a new political movement emerge to the right of them, the Conservatives worked to consolidate the right wing by merging with the Reform/Alliance, but this again caused centrist support to bleed off to the Liberals. The Liberals, for their part, have always avoided drifting further to the left, even if they did have a brief working relationship with the NDP. Had the Liberals merged with the NDP, it would have caused some of the most centrist Liberals to switch to Conservative. So that's the main reason that the Liberals are the centrist party in Canada: a predictable brand. Rather than move to the left despite obvious immediate gains, they've stayed fairly predictable. However, Dion's Green Shift platform and perceived alliance with the Greens breaks this pattern and is politically foolish as a result.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Who are you to say what's centrist and what's not?

Centrist is the median of any given electorate. The electorate's attitudes to a bevy of issues determines what the centre is.

So it is essentially a meaningless term.

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by peter12

So it is essentially a meaningless term.

Pretty much. The centre in France is different from the centre in Canada. The centre is always changing as well. Ten years ago a centrist position would be to respect equal rights for gays but not endorsing same-sex marriage. Now, a centrist position would be to endorse same-sex marriage as a majority of Canadians support it.

[Thunderball]

I'd say technically, you're both right.

The Liberals are the median party, hence, in the centre of Canadian polity. They are also the most frequently elected, and typically in the 40% range when they do. For that reason, Cheese is correct.

However, the fact is the Liberals are not a centrist party by political ideology. They are very clearly a centre-left party with fringes that appeal to the centre (like Paul Martin). Their most influential leaders in recent history were clearly left of centre (Trudeau, Chretien), one of which was actually a former card-carrying communist. Even though more Canadians vote for the middle party, they are not necessarily centrist... just less leftist than the NDP, or not centrist with right leanings. The Liberals chase the median voter. In Canada, that is a left-leaning centrist. For that reason, Resolute 14 is correct.

We do not have a conventional centre-left, centrist, centre-right alignment with our political parties. In practice, its more left, centre-left, centre-right. In the US, their two are more Centrist to Centre Right, v. Centre-Right to Hard Right, depending on leadership.

[MarchHare]

You have to look at it from two different spectrums: fiscal policy and social policy. In Canada, what you'd get is this:

Fiscal Policy:
NDP: Far Left
Liberal: Centre-left to Centre-right
Conservative: Centre-right

Social Policy:
NDP: Far Left
Liberal: Centre-left
Conservative: Centre-right to Far-right

Also keep in mind that those definitions only work from the perspective of a Canadian. To an American voter, all our parties would look far-left on fiscal policy and centre-left to far-left on social policy. To many Europeans, the NDP would appear centrist and both the Liberals and Conservatives would appear centre-right to far-right, depending on the issue.

So to call the Liberals centrist isn't that much of a misnomer, since they brand themselves as being a party of moderates whose policies are between the so-called "extremes" of the NDP and the Conservatives.

[Edit]
Historically, the Liberals have also slightly shifted their style depending on whether they're in power or in opposition. When they form the government, they tend to be more centrist, and in opposition they tend to be more left-wing.