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Old 01-11-2023, 09:23 AM   #9561
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Those Lep2s will roll what ever garbage Russian trashcan tries to stand in their way.
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Old 01-11-2023, 10:15 AM   #9562
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Open question here.

What would Switzerland actually do if Spain just sent the aid anyways?
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Old 01-11-2023, 10:26 AM   #9563
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Old 01-11-2023, 10:27 AM   #9564
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If Switzerland wants to maintain a policy of unwavering neutrality, they shouldn't have accepted a temporary position on the UN security council starting this year. Being on the security council means having to take a stand and enforcing the rule of international law. There is no way you can be neutral and do both.

There are some people in the government that want to move the country away from total neutrality though, and even some who want to explore NATO membership. They haven't gotten to the point of Sweden yet who has already decided to give up neutrality, but there are signs it is moving that way.
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:07 AM   #9565
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Open question here.

What would Switzerland actually do if Spain just sent the aid anyways?
Spain being a democratic EU country will respect the rule of law.

The Swiss are being idiots here. They shout neutrality from the rooftops, but how is manufacturing and selling heavy weapons to Spain neutral? Better yet, how is blocking the resale of said weapons a neutral? You are obviously taking a side in each scenario you dolts.
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:09 AM   #9566
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Theoretically though, the Swiss could be doing the Ukrainians a huge favour by keeping third-rate Spanish military materiel away from them.

"No, no, no! Dont give them that Spanish crap! We want to help Ukraine! Not bankrupt them on maintenance!!"

I mean, if someone offered me a Spanish Tank I would politely but firmly decline.
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:12 AM   #9567
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Theoretically though, the Swiss could be doing the Ukrainians a huge favour by keeping third-rate Spanish military materiel away from them.

"No, no, no! Dont give them that Spanish crap! We want to help Ukraine! Not bankrupt them on maintenance!!"

I mean, if someone offered me a Spanish Tank I would politely but firmly decline.
Get this crap out of here.. a leopard tank would certainly help ukraine
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:17 AM   #9568
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Get this crap out of here.. a leopard tank would certainly help ukraine
The Leopard 2 battle tank is coming from Poland. Done deal.

Spain wants to send military aid, including unknown Swiss-made equipment. But Switzerland is blocking the resale and shipment.

Locke was trying to be funny saying Spanish made military gear would be useless.

But the battle tanks are going and Russia should be afraid.
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:20 AM   #9569
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Gotcha - actually reading up on some of the spanish stuff and Locke might have a point (sorry locke!)
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:38 AM   #9570
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Gotcha - actually reading up on some of the spanish stuff and Locke might have a point (sorry locke!)
No worries, just a little levity!

My understanding here though (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that Switzerland sold the tanks to Spain for Spanish defence exclusively, therefore Spain sending those Swiss-sold tanks to Ukraine would be in contravention of that agreement.

Thats fine, its the Swiss attempting to maintain their neutrality by not having Swiss-sold armaments involved in the conflict.

No problem...I'm personally much happier that the Poles stepped in. Its a lot cleaner that way.

Plus...you can trust that the Polish tanks are well maintained and in proper working order. No under-maintained tanks due to what are, if we're honest, 'Siesta-based' reasons.

Plus the Ukrainians will get them a lot faster from Poland. You just drive 'em across the border.

I've said it before...right now Poland is Europe's genuine, bona-fide 'Not F***ing Around Crew.'

You want this thing over? Take the shackles off Poland and Putin will be swinging from a Kremlin balcony by Easter.
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:44 AM   #9571
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Gotcha - actually reading up on some of the spanish stuff and Locke might have a point (sorry locke!)
Not really. The Spanish most likely want to send their Dragon AFVs which is based on the Swiss Piranha. They are as good or better than anything Canada has sent so far.
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:45 AM   #9572
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I've said it before...right now Poland is Europe's genuine, bona-fide 'Not F***ing Around Crew.'

You want this thing over? Take the shackles off Poland and Putin will be swinging from a Kremlin balcony by Easter.
If only their government wasn't full of homophobic fascist wannabes
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:46 AM   #9573
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I don't trust "neutrality".
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:47 AM   #9574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke View Post
No worries, just a little levity!

My understanding here though (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that Switzerland sold the tanks to Spain for Spanish defence exclusively, therefore Spain sending those Swiss-sold tanks to Ukraine would be in contravention of that agreement.

Thats fine, its the Swiss attempting to maintain their neutrality by not having Swiss-sold armaments involved in the conflict.

No problem...I'm personally much happier that the Poles stepped in. Its a lot cleaner that way.

Plus...you can trust that the Polish tanks are well maintained and in proper working order. No under-maintained tanks due to what are, if we're honest, 'Siesta-based' reasons.

Plus the Ukrainians will get them a lot faster from Poland. You just drive 'em across the border.

I've said it before...right now Poland is Europe's genuine, bona-fide 'Not F***ing Around Crew.'

You want this thing over? Take the shackles off Poland and Putin will be swinging from a Kremlin balcony by Easter.
It is for defense. Ukraine is the front line of Russia's invasion of Europe. Spain is part of Europe. Now, if they could only use them on Spanish soil, that's another thing...
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:47 AM   #9575
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Not really. The Spanish most likely want to send their Dragon AFVs which is based on the Swiss Piranha. They are as good or better than anything Canada has sent so far.
Raise the bar.

Although the Guns Canada sent were/are good.
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:50 AM   #9576
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Those Lep2s will roll what ever garbage Russian trashcan tries to stand in their way.
Arguably one of the best tanks rolling around the the world today
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Old 01-11-2023, 11:51 AM   #9577
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Raise the bar.

Although the Guns Canada sent were/are good.
For sure, but no one is going to say no to something as good as a LAV.
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Old 01-11-2023, 12:17 PM   #9578
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It's sounding like Challenger tanks are on the way as well.

Wondering what the final tally of heavy weaponry is going to look like following the Jan 20th meetings.

Clearly setting the groundwork for a spring/summer offensive.

50 Bradleys
Marders
APX
14+ Leopards
Challengers
M113 & HMMWV

Russian conscripts are going to be having an even rougher time quite soon.
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Old 01-11-2023, 12:25 PM   #9579
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It is for defense. Ukraine is the front line of Russia's invasion of Europe. Spain is part of Europe. Now, if they could only use them on Spanish soil, that's another thing...
Well, I'm obviously not intimately familiar with the specifics of the contract or sale agreement between Spain and Switzerland, but I'd wager that Spain isnt really in a lot of imminent danger from Russia at the moment and seeing as though NATO as a whole isnt getting involved in a conflict that endangers all of Europe I dont think that argument would wash.
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Old 01-11-2023, 12:26 PM   #9580
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I don't trust "neutrality".
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