Stabbing in Brentwood-5 Dead, 1 Arrested

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Take it easy white knight, its not like what he said is irrelevant.
The CDN justice system is a joke, we all know this, they are going to play the psycho card and the rest will be history. Very unfortunate for the families.

Almost no one gets off on the "psycho" card. What do you think happens in the courtroom?

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I have a deeply psychotic lad living with me right now, hears voices sees things, is utterly convinced that a kid he lived next door to is plotting to steal his soul, but he is at the same time normal, essentially he is a normal person reacting to what he believes are real deeply frightening supernatural events.

He's on enough drugs to knock out a rhino but they are doing sod all to help him and the fact that they don't feeds into his delusions, he tells me when I tell him the voices are a symptom of his illness 'if I was psychotic the drugs would work therefore the voices must be real and you are lying to me'

Beyond my ability to cope with, I haven't slept properly in weeks while they look for a better placement for him, at the same time he's a desperately sad kid, his friends are avoiding him because he scares the bejesus out of every one now, but a year ago he was pretty much a normal kid.

My brother is schizophrenic. It started a few years ago. One day he tells me he wants to visit Calgary from Toronto soon (he stayed with me for a few months in the past for work). I said there were issues the last time, but he insisted. I was shocked to see him at my door after I finished working an evening shift later the same day. He was pale as a ghost and just acted odd. He stayed for 1 day, having run off while I was at work, before he left me the craziest letter saying how people are going to kill him and he doesn't want to get family in trouble (he was writing scared). I thought his thought process was not rational. He ran off the furthest he could go in Canada without a passport (basically Victoria), until he realized he had no money or food and did a cry for help. He went back to Toronto safely after I bought him a ticket back home.

It took some time to figure out that the incident was a schizophrenic episode (I thought at first he got involved in something real bad and he was escaping them). He was OK for a few months after, but he got gradually worse after. My dad had to convince him to get off the roof of the house one time. He was scared, but would act normal to people talking to him.

Unfortunately in Canada, unless the person does it voluntarily, you cannot force him on medications or in a mental hospital unless it is proven that he is a danger to society (my dad tried and tried). An incident with him and a waitress happened where he would litterally stalk her, he became violent with an older man, and he was banned from the restaurant (my dad pleaded for the owner not to press charges). He briefly did get help because of a shrewd doctor who realized my brother was lying one time that my dad took him, and somehow convinced him to sign up for some medications. The problem is that if the person does not believe he has a mental disorder, he will only see the medication as a new cause of fear. He convinced his doctors that he was going through with the medication, but in reality he thought that my dad was the cause of his life being ruined (he thought he was normal and the medications were part of my dad's attempts to control him), and eventually he just stopped showing up for the medication after a mandatory set time.

He was closest to me in the family and I spoke with him the brief time he was on medications, and he was normal but was incredibly distraught. He eventually cut off all contact including me a few years ago, no phone, no address, no internet. He put all his stuff in storage and had my name as the contact unknown to me as they were trying to collect payment since he disappeared.

He's like the Greyhound guy, but he's on the loose right now without medications, and there is nothing that can be done about it until a tragic event happens. When left untreated, incidents like the Greyhound beheading and the Brentwood murders are often what ends up happening. Schizophrenic people are normal people like anyone here, but hear or see things that seem to be part of reality. My brother genuinely believed that a few guys were stalking him, and followed him to his home a few times.

[peter12]

Very poignant, Firebot, and heart-breaking.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Royle9

The CDN justice system is a joke, we all know this, they are going to play the psycho card and the rest will be history. Very unfortunate for the families.

I guess if you believe he is lying, I can understand to a degree that sentiment. But at the same time the verdict is long ways off and there's been no evidence to suggest that he isn't just mentally ill.

How can you read the story of a boy who went to a party with his friends with garlic because he feared the vampires, zombies, werewolves and Medusas (gorgons) and not think that boy is crazy? He also tried to be killed by police so he could be resurrected as he was the "Son of God."

How far away from normal does someone have to be to think that this man isn't insane and should be responsible for his actions? "Hey, we all party in Calgary where there's werewolves and vampires all over the place but I've never killed anyone before." Like that's the only "rational" thinking that could lead someone to believe this person was criminally responsible for his actions.

Of course it's an extremely unfortunate event for the families, but, at least on the surface, this seems to be another case of mental illness. Punishing the mentally ill for something that they really have no control over isn't in anyone's best interest and certainly not Canada's.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by peter12

Almost no one gets off on the "psycho" card. What do you think happens in the courtroom?

Uh what? the insanity plea is the card pulled 90% of the time, please tell me whats going to happen in the court room? Lets remember Vince Li the decapitating cannibal greyhound scumlord. Few years in a padded cell before getting freedom visits to his hometown.

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I guess if you believe he is lying, I can understand to a degree that sentiment. But at the same time the verdict is long ways off and there's been no evidence to suggest that he isn't just mentally ill.

How can you read the story of a boy who went to a party with his friends with garlic because he feared the vampires, zombies, werewolves and Medusas (gorgons) and not think that boy is crazy? He also tried to be killed by police so he could be resurrected as he was the "Son of God."

How far away from normal does someone have to be to think that this man isn't insane and should be responsible for his actions? "Hey, we all party in Calgary where there's werewolves and vampires all over the place but I've never killed anyone before." Like that's the only "rational" thinking that could lead someone to believe this person was criminally responsible for his actions.

Of course it's an extremely unfortunate event for the families, but, at least on the surface, this seems to be another case of mental illness. Punishing the mentally ill for something that they really have no control over isn't in anyone's best interest and certainly not Canada's.

He was deemed fit enough to stand trial, I'm not discounting the notion that he is definitely mentally unstable to the point where he's talking about werewolves and zombies and whatnot, but I guess I just don't see how that should have any effect on the punishment for his crime.

Stable enough to have a job.
Stable enough to have a university education.
Stable enough to understand what he was doing (he told the police)

There's lots of crazy people out there in the world, but not all of them are committing a mass murder. Maybe he does have some mental health problems, but who's to say he's not playing at least some of it up to make it seem worse than it is. I guess that's why they've got professionals working this case, only time will tell.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Uh what? the insanity plea is the card pulled 90% of the time. Lets remember Vince Li the decapitating cannibal greyhound scumlord. Few years in a padded cell before getting freedom visits to his hometown.

Lol. You watch too much TV crime drama

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Uh what? the insanity plea is the card pulled 90% of the time. Lets remember Vince Li the decapitating cannibal greyhound scumlord. Few years in a padded cell before getting freedom visits to his hometown.

And is successful something like 19 out of 8000 cases per year.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I guess if you believe he is lying, I can understand to a degree that sentiment. But at the same time the verdict is long ways off and there's been no evidence to suggest that he isn't just mentally ill.

How can you read the story of a boy who went to a party with his friends with garlic because he feared the vampires, zombies, werewolves and Medusas (gorgons) and not think that boy is crazy? He also tried to be killed by police so he could be resurrected as he was the "Son of God."

How far away from normal does someone have to be to think that this man isn't insane and should be responsible for his actions? "Hey, we all party in Calgary where there's werewolves and vampires all over the place but I've never killed anyone before." Like that's the only "rational" thinking that could lead someone to believe this person was criminally responsible for his actions.

Of course it's an extremely unfortunate event for the families, but, at least on the surface, this seems to be another case of mental illness. Punishing the mentally ill for something that they really have no control over isn't in anyone's best interest and certainly not Canada's.

It goes the other way. We don't know. There is a team of top psychiatrists involved in this case. Let's let them make the decision.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by peter12

It goes the other way. We don't know. There is a team of top psychiatrists involved in this case. Let's let them make the decision.

We get that. People are just opining.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Bagor

We get that. People are just opining.

It is the most of idle of idle speculation.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Uh what? the insanity plea is the card pulled 90% of the time, please tell me whats going to happen in the court room? Lets remember Vince Li the decapitating cannibal greyhound scumlord. Few years in a padded cell before getting freedom visits to his hometown.



He was deemed fit enough to stand trial, I'm not discounting the notion that he is definitely mentally unstable to the point where he's talking about werewolves and zombies and whatnot, but I guess I just don't see how that should have any effect on the punishment for his crime.

Stable enough to have a job.
Stable enough to have a university education.
Stable enough to understand what he was doing (he told the police)

There's lots of crazy people out there in the world, but not all of them are committing a mass murder. Maybe he does have some mental health problems, but who's to say he's not playing at least some of it up to make it seem worse than it is. I guess that's why they've got professionals working this case, only time will tell.

Mental health problems can coincide with a lot of things.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Lol. You watch too much TV crime drama

Keep telling yourself that.

Originally Posted by peter12

Mental health problems can coincide with a lot of things.

Yes and very tragic, Mental health is real I just don't agree with its use as a reason to discount a murders severity or punishment.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Keep telling yourself that.



Yes and very tragic, Mental health is real I just don't agree with its use as a reason to discount a murders severity or punishment.

Look. This is clearly up to people with very sophisticated understandings of the law, and psychopathology.

However, as you said, if mental health is real, then it must have real effects. For example, if someone suffers from paranoid delusions or violent urges beyond his rational control, why couldn't that be considered if he ends up acting upon those urges?

I really think you underestimate how seriously the courts take these kinds of things.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Uh what? the insanity plea is the card pulled 90% of the time

I assume you completely made up that fictitious 90% figure without actually doing any research on the issue. In reality, only 0.1% of criminal cases in Canada result in the defendant being found not criminally responsible, and only one-tenth of that 0.1% are violent offenders.

In Alberta, between April 1, 2013, and March 31, 2014, 19 people were found to be not criminally responsible. In the next 12 months, another 19 people were deemed NCR.

Compare those numbers to the approximate 60,000 criminal arrests in the province each year, according to statistics from Alberta Justice.

[...]

Nationally, about 1 out of 1,000 criminal cases are found to be NCR; Baillie says of those, fewer than 10 per cent are for violent offences.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...bing-1.3583660

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The scary part for me is not the kid, it's the system that's supposed to take care of him, a couple of days after the hospital released him into my care after telling me he was stablized I called them to say he was still hearing voices and evil spirits were still following him, they asked me if the voices were directing him to do anything, I replied not that he'd described it.

'oh that's ok then, call us if that changes'

My fear right now is I am doing just a good enough job of keeping the kid calm that they can ignore his needs and in the long run I am screwing the kid over.

Canada has a painfully broken system that protects the person's freedom and rights so much, even to the detriment of society, that situations such as this one and the Greyhound one, will happen again because nothing happened prior. Having dealt with it first hand is frustrating beyond belief. My brother is as schizophrenic as it gets, and he's out there because the system does not allow someone to be forced against their will in an institution, unless there is a criminal history or strong belief he is a danger to others. My brother would get interviewed, get asked if he is hearing voices to hurt someone or kill someone, he would say no, he would be let free. Even when he disappeared after briefly being on a program, my dad was told "well the program expires if he decides to stop on his own, and we will not pursue to find him".

Since my brother has disappeared with no identity and likely has changed his name, he could just become one of these guys, people will question how this could happen, and talk again about the whole 'insanity plead' scam in court. Vince Li was 100% insane, but since his only connection was his wife, he never got help and worked as a normal guy until that one incident. Heck a co-worker working right next to you could be one of these guys keeping their secrets and fears to themselves. Being an immigrant, would his wife even know to get help, and if she did, would she have gotten any? Vince Li was a law abiding citizen after all.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Canada has a painfully broken system that protects the person's freedom and rights so much, even to the detriment of society, that situations such as this one and the Greyhound one, will happen again because nothing happened prior. Having dealt with it first hand is frustrating beyond belief. My brother is as schizophrenic as it gets, and he's out there because the system does not allow someone to be forced against their will in an institution, unless there is a criminal history or strong belief he is a danger to others. My brother would get interviewed, get asked if he is hearing voices to hurt someone or kill someone, he would say no, he would be let free. Even when he disappeared after briefly being on a program, my dad was told "well the program expires if he decides to stop on his own, and we will not pursue to find him".

Since my brother has disappeared with no identity and likely has changed his name, he could just become one of these guys, people will question how this could happen, and talk again about the whole 'insanity plead' scam in court. Vince Li was 100% insane, but since his only connection was his wife, he never got help and worked as a normal guy until that one incident. Heck a co-worker working right next to you could be one of these guys keeping their secrets and fears to themselves. Being an immigrant, would his wife even know to get help, and if she did, would she have gotten any? Vince Li was a law abiding citizen after all.

Depends on your definition of broken. Personal freedom is paramount in our society, and, as sad as it is, if your brother lives the rest of his life without hurting anyone, is that better or worse than him being in an institution against his will?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Depends on your definition of broken. Personal freedom is paramount in our society, and, as sad as it is, if your brother lives the rest of his life without hurting anyone, is that better or worse than him being in an institution against his will?

To the detriment of relational freedom.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Take it easy white knight, its not like what he said is irrelevant.
The CDN justice system is a joke, we all know this, they are going to play the psycho card and the rest will be history. Very unfortunate for the families.

Watch a little less Law and Order, read a few more books where people have to cite their sources, and let the process happen.

I wasn't white-knighting anything, who was I defending with that statement? T@T took it as intended and moved on, you've just proceeded to show your lack of applicable knowledge on the subject.

As has been pointed out, your version of the Canadian justice system doesn't actually exist, and you have a vague concept of the impact of mental illness. It's is all very unfortunate for the families. All of the families. Including the family of the murderer.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Keep telling yourself that.



Yes and very tragic, Mental health is real I just don't agree with its use as a reason to discount a murders severity or punishment.

I honestly don't think you even understand the basics of the criminal justice system. You're reacting on gut feel and lots flat out wrong.

Why did Vince Li behead that guy?

And what is different about his sentence than if he were found criminally responsible? And why is that in regards to the purpose of the system as a whole?

I think if you were to answer both those questions by doing a little digging instead of emotionally reacting you might feel differently.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I assume you completely made up that fictitious 90% figure without actually doing any research on the issue. In reality, only 0.1% of criminal cases in Canada result in the defendant being found not criminally responsible, and only one-tenth of that 0.1% are violent offenders.

Yes the 90% was fictitious, however what I didn't reference was the amount of times its successful but rather the amount of times its pulled or attempted to be used when involving a brutal homicide like this one.

As for your math:

Almost two-thirds (63%) of NCRMD cases where the most serious decision4 in the case was NCRMD involved crimes against the person. Major assault was the most frequent offence, representing about 20% of these NCRMD cases
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-.../14085-eng.htm