Israel declares war on Hamas

[Language]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are so certain that Israel has no desire to kill more than necessary, and you justify that position by saying they could, and haven't, so won't. Let me ask you this, did Hitler go immediately to killing all the Jews, or was it a long process?

My god, you’re a buffoon. You’re literally comparing 6 MILLION (read that again, over and over) Jews being murdered, majority exterminated by gas chambers and shooting, in killing factories that were set up, to somewhere around 20,000 civilian Palestinians being killed in urban warfare. This is based on the estimates that about 50% of those killed (other 20,000) are Hamas terrorists.

Based on all past wars, The UN, EU and other sources estimate that civilians usually account for 80 percent to 90 percent of casualties, or a 1:9 ratio, in modern war. And here we have Israel, at roughly a 1:1 ratio, in arguably the toughest urban warfare conditions that any country has ever seen, due to the extensive tunnel networks and booby traps that Hamas has built, essentially making Gaza one giant terror maze.

But no you’re right, let’s compare this to Hitler and the Holocaust. I can definitely see Israel setting up concentration camps and gassing the Palestinians, until they’re all gone. Have you gone completely mad? The fact you can’t wrap your little head around extremely tough war conditions and genocide is mind boggling. This is the slowest genocide in human history it seems. I guess Israel is just slow playing it like a long process, similar to Hitler.

Every war in history must then be genocide based on your warped mind.


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[AltaGuy]

This is based on the estimates that about 50% of those killed (other 20,000) are Hamas terrorists.

Please provide a source for this silliness so we can laugh at you.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are so certain that Israel has no desire to kill more than necessary, and you justify that position by saying they could, and haven't, so won't. Let me ask you this, did Hitler go immediately to killing all the Jews, or was it a long process?

Yes, I'm certain that Israel doesn't have desire to kill "more than necessary" or simply for the sake of killing. I went to school there and the education was always about striving for peace and living in peace in our country. Moreover Israel is still a democracy, and any such killing wouldn't be supported by the majority, or the legal system in Israel.

You're trying to force a rather tasteless narrative here. The Arab/Muslim citizens of Israel enjoy the same rights as the Jews. You just conveniently forget about them because they decided to join Israel after 1948.

Israel never tried exterminate all the Arab refugees, that then became the Palestinians. There was plenty of time since 1967 to accomplish that. Hitler in contrast was appointed as the chanselor of Germany in 1933 and almost immediately all of Germany's problems were blamed on the Jews. The final solution took 10 years before it started being implemented, but Jews became worse than slaves long before that.

[Language]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Right little genocides and terrorism denier aren't you?

Yes I am. Yes it is. Sniping at children to be precise.

Answer the question.

You’ll be disappointed if you go and read some history accounts of what soldiers did in WW1 and WW2, when it came to civilians.

Even Canadian soldiers were not immune to taking out some of their misery on civilians, children included, after being in battle for long periods of time. I’ve read the accounts and heard stories. War is terrible. So I guess based on your criteria, Canada is also a genocidal regime, and likely every other country that’s been involved in warfare that’s led to civilian deaths (which greatly outnumbers combatants).

You have literally no critical thinking ability, it’s amazing to behold the stupidity.


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[Language]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Please provide a source for this silliness so we can laugh at you.

Wikipedia says 17,000 (per IDF sources). And now you’re going to say you can’t rely on IDF sources. Well Hamas said 6,000. So even if you take the average and estimate it at 11,000, that’s still an approximate 1:4 ratio, which is less than half of the average from all other wars, when it comes to civilian vs combatant deaths.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Hamas_war


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[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Right little genocides and terrorism denier aren't you?

Yes I am. Yes it is. Sniping at children to be precise.

Answer the question.

Answering the question, would imply that I think that Israel is deliberately killing civilians. I don't! Which is exactly what you're trying to bait.

Here's what the IDF's ethical guidelines have to say:

The soldier will not use their weapon or power to harm uninvolved civilians and prisoners and will do everything in their power to prevent harm to their lives, bodies, dignity and property.

If an individual is not following the rules set by the IDF he's dealt with to the full extant of the law. That individual would be using unlawful violence against civilians, but not in the pursuit of political gains, so no I still wouldn't consider him a terrorist, but a criminal.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Language

You’ll be disappointed if you go and read some history accounts of what soldiers did in WW1 and WW2, when it came to civilians.

And..... What?

So if soldiers in WW1 and 2 deliberately murdered children that makes everything ok? What a fantastic critical thinker you are!

Here. Mr self proclaimed smarty pants. Your turn.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Do you find the deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel to be acts of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of a Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

If not. Why not. What's the difference?

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Language

Wikipedia says 17,000 (per IDF sources). And now you’re going to say you can’t rely on IDF sources. Well Hamas said 6,000. So even if you take the average and estimate it at 11,000, that’s still an approximate 1:4 ratio, which is less than half of the average from all other wars, when it comes to civilian vs combatant deaths.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Hamas_war


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Ah, so you just added 3,000 to the IDF's very dubious claims. Cool. No agenda here.

[Zary's-Mustache]

I also don't consider this a war. War is fought between 2 armies. Hamas only has small rockets and some old Soviet style guns. This is indiscriminate terrorism and is being done in a way to punish civilians as well.

Just look at lebanon and how Israel was killing hezbollah members with very minimal civilian deaths before this last week. They were being very precise and we know they can be precise when they want.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Answering the question, would imply that I think that Israel is deliberately killing civilians. I don't! Which is exactly what you're trying to bait.

Of course you don't.

Let me rephrase the question for you then.

If it was shown that Israel was deliberately killing Palestinian civilians would you consider that an act of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of a Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

If not. Why not. What's the difference?

Do the IDFs ethical guidelines (lol!) say anything about committing genocide?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Language

Wikipedia says 17,000 (per IDF sources). And now you’re going to say you can’t rely on IDF sources. Well Hamas said 6,000. So even if you take the average and estimate it at 11,000, that’s still an approximate 1:4 ratio, which is less than half of the average from all other wars, when it comes to civilian vs combatant deaths.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Hamas_war


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At best, taking IDF numbers, you can say it’s 50% direct deaths, with indirect deaths being multiple times higher and nearly 95% of the population displaced and almost all critical infrastructure destroyed.

Not something to hang your hat on. You think not putting a bullet in every man, woman, and child themselves absolves them of all the rest of it? I know you’re cheering it on but come on.

[Language]

Originally Posted by Bagor

And..... What?

So if soldiers in WW1 and 2 deliberately murdered children that makes everything ok? What a fantastic critical thinker you are!

Here. Mr self proclaimed smarty pants. Your turn.

I never said it’s ok that soldiers did it, of course it’s not. Where exactly did I say that? What a fantastic reader you are!

I’m following along with your flawed logic. If your definition of genocide means that there are some soldiers that sniped at children, then that means that all other wars that have had instances of this, means it’s genocide too. You keep going on about killing women and children and it being genocide, but this happens in all wars. So are all conflicts genocide? I’ve pointed out that the ratio of civilians killed in this war is less than other wars, and even more so when you consider urban warfare.

And to answer your question:

Do you find the deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel to be acts of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of an Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

No, because I don’t equate the IDF and Hamas as similar when it comes to “deliberate” intent. I don’t think there is any disagreement here that Hamas set out to deliberately murder civilians and enact terrorism on 10/7. I vehemently do not believe that Israel and the IDF are deliberately setting out to murder civilians. Their tactics can be highly scrutinized, sure, but the primary intent of the IDF is to kill Hamas terrorists, not civilians. And again, we’re talking about an area that’s a literal terror maze. If they wanted to kill civilians deliberately as their main purpose in Gaza, then the death count would be exponentially higher than it is now, considering the density and population there.


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[Language]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Ah, so you just added 3,000 to the IDF's very dubious claims. Cool. No agenda here.

Ok, and then I also took 6,000 as a low average, based on Hamas’s own dubious claims, in which they would also downplay their numbers. And then I averaged the two out to get 11,000 terrorists killed, as a reasonable number. So where’s my agenda?

Which would put the civilian ratio at 1:4, which is more than 2x better than all other urban wars in history.

Just trying to follow the moving goal posts about what constitutes genocide.

- Is it some outlier examples of sniping kids like Bagor says? Ok, that happens in all wars. You can’t brush an entire army’s and nation’s intent with outlier examples.

- is it based on the number of civilians killed?
Ok, as I’ve just mentioned, the ratio is better than in other wars in way tougher urban fighting conditions

- is it population displacement and destruction of infrastructure like Pepsi mentioned?
Ok, Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. It’s going to see significant damage in all out warfare.

No agenda, just trying to understand the logic.

Now I see Zary is even saying this isn’t a war altogether! That just takes the cake as far as mental gymnastics goes. Absolutely ridiculous.


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[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Language

If your definition of genocide means that there are some soldiers that sniped at children

You struggling? Never have I said that to be a definition of genocide.

Genocide and what constitutes it was debated much earlier in the thread. Go update yourself before making silly assumptions.

I do however consider soldiers deliberately sniping at and killing civilians including children and the elderly to be acts of terrorism.

Originally Posted by Language

Do you find the deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel to be acts of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of an Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

No, because I don’t equate the IDF and Hamas as similar when it comes to “deliberate” intent. I don’t think there is any disagreement here that Hamas set out to deliberately murder civilians and enact terrorism on 10/7. I vehemently do not believe that Israel and the IDF are deliberately setting out to murder civilians.

You choose to deny it because to admit it is to admit that Israel is committing acts of terrorism.

Like it or not IDF and Hamas are no different when it comes to vile, disgusting, deliberate, sadistic, hateful targetting of civilians.

Plenty of Physicians will be submitting reports to ICJ and ICC to the contrary.

Video of elderly lady with child in hand being deliberately murdered by an Israeli sniper.
Most will find disturbing but a few will try to deny or justify it.

NSFW!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1746630367493189822

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

I also don't consider this a war. War is fought between 2 armies. Hamas only has small rockets and some old Soviet style guns. This is indiscriminate terrorism and is being done in a way to punish civilians as well.

Just look at lebanon and how Israel was killing hezbollah members with very minimal civilian deaths before this last week. They were being very precise and we know they can be precise when they want.

The operation in Lebanon took 15 years to plan and execute. Even if it was planned quicker, Israel was preparering for an operation in Lebanon for the last 11 months.

The war in Gaza, and it is a war, caught Israel unaware. There was a huge time aspect because of the hostages.

You belittle the weapons arsenal Hamas has/had. Those small rockets include the R160 that carries a 150kg payload. Even if those were only the Qasam rockets that he have a much smaller 10-20kg payload, they're still plenty dangerous, especially when fired by the thousand.



You somehow convinced yourself that Hamas wasn't well supplied. On the 7th, many IDF soldiers testified that they had the disadvantage when it came to weapons. The Hamas fighters had a lot more, ammo, and granades. Hamas was smuggling weapons through Rafah for 16 years, and had the backing of Iran, and Qatar.

If the Israeli soldiers were only met by old AK fire, then they wouldn't sustain nearly this level of casualties. Theyre constantly peppered with rpg fire, sniper fire, heavy machine guns, anti tank mines, drones with explosives, and so on. Feel free to read up on the weapons they actually use.

That's quite the mental exercise you're making trying to make excuses for Palestinians and justify "shooting only small rockets" at civilians. Would you be okay with Israel using Grads as rocket artilary on a city? Of course you won't, because it would cause mass casualties, but it's okay to do it to Israel because they made the iron dome, which also doesn't work for 100% of the time.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Of course you don't.

Let me rephrase the question for you then.

If it was shown that Israel was deliberately killing Palestinian civilians would you consider that an act of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of a Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

If not. Why not. What's the difference?

Do the IDFs ethical guidelines (lol!) say anything about committing genocide?

Sure, if you can show that Israel is deliberately and unlawfully killing civilians to further a political or religious ideological purpose.

The problem here is that it seems that our definition of deliberate varies quite a bit.

Israel doesn't commit genocide, but you sure enjoy repeating it. If it did maybe South Africa would actually be able to present some proof, and not just ask for delays.

Okay here's my question for you: are you calling all soldiers terrorists? Is the Canadian Army a terrorist organization because it took part in the Afghan war? There were about 46 thousand civilian casualties there. Do we apply the same logic to Iraq? Every other conflict?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

You struggling? Never have I said that to be a definition of genocide.

Genocide and what constitutes it was debated much earlier in the thread. Go update yourself before making silly assumptions.

I do however consider soldiers deliberately sniping at and killing civilians including children and the elderly to be acts of terrorism.



You choose to deny it because to admit it is to admit that Israel is committing acts of terrorism.

Like it or not IDF and Hamas are no different when it comes to vile, disgusting, deliberate, sadistic, hateful targetting of civilians.

Plenty of Physicians will be submitting reports to ICJ and ICC to the contrary.

Video of elderly lady with child in hand being deliberately murdered by an Israeli sniper.
Most will find disturbing but a few will try to deny or justify it.

NSFW!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1746630367493189822

You're clearly purposefully struggling to see the difference between the IDF and Hamas so let me clear it up for you. When Hamas captured parts of Israel, they killed or kidnapped any person they saw. Race, religion, gender, or nationality didn't matter to them. They just took joy in killing as many as possible. They documented themselves doing it. There are recorded phone calls of them calling their parents bragging about killing Jews. I'm sure you're one of those apologists that denies the rape, and mutilations that were going on, as well, because you don't want to believe people are capable of that.

In contrast Israeli soldiers I talked to really struggle with seeing helpless Palestinian civilians, especially ones that have been injured. The soldiers as a whole don't want to kill Palestinians just to avange Israeli casualties. Will there be exceptions? Sure, there always are, but those are being weeded out.

The IDFs code of conduct, and ethics are enforced. Just recently soldiers were under investigation because a Nokhba terrorist died under their supervision. While others were accused by another terrorist for entering a hard object into his rectum. The soldiers were detained and the investigation is ongoing.

The tweet you posted, what proof does it provide that it was an Israeli sniper? It could be a Hamas sniper for all I know. Is there video evidence of the shot? Or is it just her falling to the ground? Was the bullet taken to a forensic lab to determine the shooter, could it have been tempered with along the way?

[gvitaly]

While we're on the topic of hurting innocents here's another one:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1839452741871042626

It's interesting how those are always worded:

It is with deep sadness that HEAL Palestine announces the killing of our Gaza Program Manager, Islam Hijazy, in Gaza today. She was the mother of two small children, and a humanitarian with the highest ethics and professionalism. Islam intentionally stayed in Gaza to help others. “My place is in Gaza serving my people,” she said when she started her leadership role with HEAL. HEAL Palestine is more dedicated than ever to serving Gaza, in her honor. Ceasefire now.

I would've thought that the IDF killed her myself, reading those words. Not one mention of Hamas killing her though. Riddling her car with 90 bullets.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1839658256869871651

[PepsiFree]

It’s kind of disturbing watching hateful people scramble to show how good they feel about civilian deaths in realtime.

Don’t worry everyone, the IDF is fine to kill tens of thousands and endanger the lives of millions and it’s not genocide no matter what you say because the terrorists kill innocent people, too. For example, here’s one!

Wild.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

You're clearly purposefully struggling to see the difference between the IDF and Hamas so let me clear it up for you.

They are both vile, evil murderers of innocents and rapists.
The difference is the actions of both make me a sick whilst you will go above and beyond to defend one.

Originally Posted by gvitaly

In contrast Israeli soldiers I talked to really struggle with seeing helpless Palestinian civilians, especially ones that have been injured. The soldiers as a whole don't want to kill Palestinians just to avange Israeli casualties. Will there be exceptions? Sure, there always are, but those are being weeded out

Classic proving Gideon Levy correct. "The only war where the aggressors are the victims." Poor sick soldiers being forced to murder children and elderly .
They don't want to murder people as they scramble for food. They don't want to lure paramedics in so they can execute them.

Poor poor soldiers. Won't someone spare a thought for those poor sadistic psychotic sickos.?

Originally Posted by gvitaly

The IDFs code of conduct, and ethics are enforced. Just recently soldiers were under investigation because a Nokhba terrorist died under their supervision. While others were accused by another terrorist for entering a hard object into his rectum. The soldiers were detained and the investigation is ongoing.

LOL! There's a reason why they refuse to allow the world's media into the area. They're a bunch of psychotic sickos with their weird videos as they laugh as they destroy residences, schools, universities, places of worship.
We're only seeing/hearing a fraction of what's going on. Asides from waving a white flag one of the most dangerous ativi in Gaza is to wear a press vest.

Noteworthy that you call the raped detainee/prisoner a terrorist whilst the mainstream media refrains from doing so? Almost as if you want to justify rape.

Yeah. Debating in Parliament for the right to rape. Think about the absurdity of that. Protests to free the rapists. Slots for the rapists on Israeli TV. Senior politicians showing the support for the rapists. What heros.

Don't talk about code of conduct when it's clear anything goes. No one will be shocked if they're promoted.

I'll save your response to the murder of an innocent elder woman for a separate post given the sickness of it.