Israel declares war on Hamas

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

Not to downplay the West's meddling, but this isn't true either. The area ha been the forum for competing empires and religions since the dawn of history, and that continues to today. In fact, most of the violence occurs between various religious factions, but we just don't hear that much about it, as it doesn't concern Israel.

At the end of WWI, you had the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, which had become a Turkish colonial exercise. Massive power vacuums left behind. That was never going to play out peacefully with or without the West. Even before the West became involved, Turkey was committing some of the worst attrocities in history. Genocides of Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, etc...

Sorry, what I said ‘isn’t true’ ?! The west hasn’t meddled? Or did you mean it’s not the sole reason?

People so desperate to disagree with others here that they can’t admit the most obvious things that someone else posts.

[Language]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Israel holds the balance of power. So, it’s a little difficult to make that abundantly clear (putting the onus on other countries to make peace with Israel, or declaring what they need to accept) while absolving them of any role or responsibility in this process.

They have their own extremists and are responsible (as a government) for the deaths of more civilians than any of these extremist groups, by far. At a certain point, you have to question what you’re cheering for.

No doubt that Israeli government has their own extremists. But I’m cheering for the country and people that ultimately want to live in peace with their neighbors, and not the ones that perpetually start wars, are death cults, and celebrate martyrdom.

Regarding the balance of power - this is just the way it goes. That’s not to say Israel doesn’t need to make concessions as part of a two state solution. But look back in history. The countries that are more powerful, have won wars, or are militarily stronger are always the ones that will dictate terms. It’s always been this way and will continue to be. It sucks for the Palestinians but eventually they also need to look in the mirror and figure out if they just want to accept a deal (perhaps a ####ty deal), or live in perpetual misery, blockades and bombardment.

The thing is, even before 10/7, it was in Israel’s interest to just maintain the status quo. Keep Gaza isolated and blockaded (because Hamas is in power). Keep slowly expanding settlements in the West Bank to build out a buffer with Palestinians. Israel was essentially playing the long game because despite the constant uprisings in West Bank, and threat of Hezbollah across in Lebanon, that was still a more desirable outcome than negotiating for peace. Because you can’t negotiate for peace with terror organizations. That shouldn’t even need to be typed out because it’s obvious.

Before 10/7, if Israel woke up one morning and said, “ok, enough of this: “here’s Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem as your capital; we’re lifting all blockades so you can import/export whatever you want: build up your military as you wish; live in peace and let us live in peace”. Do you think this would have satisfied Hamas/Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad? Does anyone here truly believe they all would have said “mission accomplished!” and set aside their extremist agendas and lived in peace with Israel? There’s just no way, and anyone who believes that is extremely naive or has no understanding of how these groups operate or what their ultimate goal is. All it would have done would have moved the dangerous groups even closer to Israel’s border - essentially a suicide wish.

As long as Hezbollah/Hamas exist and Iran is funding them, and yelling that the Zionist enemy must be defeated, there is absolutely no opportunity for peace and no opportunity to even begin discussing peace.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Language

No doubt that Israeli government has their own extremists. But I’m cheering for the country and people that ultimately want to live in peace with their neighbors, and not the ones that perpetually start wars, are death cults, and celebrate martyrdom.

Regarding the balance of power - this is just the way it goes. That’s not to say Israel doesn’t need to make concessions as part of a two state solution. But look back in history. The countries that are more powerful, have won wars, or are militarily stronger are always the ones that will dictate terms. It’s always been this way and will continue to be. It sucks for the Palestinians but eventually they also need to look in the mirror and figure out if they just want to accept a deal (perhaps a ####ty deal), or live in perpetual misery, blockades and bombardment.

The thing is, even before 10/7, it was in Israel’s interest to just maintain the status quo. Keep Gaza isolated and blockaded (because Hamas is in power). Keep slowly expanding settlements in the West Bank to build out a buffer with Palestinians. Israel was essentially playing the long game because despite the constant uprisings in West Bank, and threat of Hezbollah across in Lebanon, that was still a more desirable outcome than negotiating for peace. Because you can’t negotiate for peace with terror organizations. That shouldn’t even need to be typed out because it’s obvious.

Before 10/7, if Israel woke up one morning and said, “ok, enough of this: “here’s Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem as your capital; we’re lifting all blockades so you can import/export whatever you want: build up your military as you wish; live in peace and let us live in peace”. Do you think this would have satisfied Hamas/Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad? Does anyone here truly believe they all would have said “mission accomplished!” and set aside their extremist agendas and lived in peace with Israel? There’s just no way, and anyone who believes that is extremely naive or has no understanding of how these groups operate or what their ultimate goal is. All it would have done would have moved the dangerous groups even closer to Israel’s border - essentially a suicide wish.

As long as Hezbollah/Hamas exist and Iran is funding them, and yelling that the Zionist enemy must be defeated, there is absolutely no opportunity for peace and no opportunity to even begin discussing peace.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can't recognize those facts and also not recognize that's exactly why there was a slaughter on Oct 7th. You get that, right?

Also, " It sucks for the Palestinians" has got to be the biggest understatement of the century. "Sucks" doesn't come close to the suffering they are being put through by Israel, who could stop it any day, if they chose not to make people suffer. But they don't. I guess it's easier to hold your position when you downplay this kind of hell as "sucks".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/girl-g...332349?cmp=rss

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Language

No doubt that Israeli government has their own extremists. But I’m cheering for the country and people that ultimately want to live in peace with their neighbors, and not the ones that perpetually start wars, are death cults, and celebrate martyrdom.

Regarding the balance of power - this is just the way it goes. That’s not to say Israel doesn’t need to make concessions as part of a two state solution. But look back in history. The countries that are more powerful, have won wars, or are militarily stronger are always the ones that will dictate terms. It’s always been this way and will continue to be. It sucks for the Palestinians but eventually they also need to look in the mirror and figure out if they just want to accept a deal (perhaps a ####ty deal), or live in perpetual misery, blockades and bombardment.

The thing is, even before 10/7, it was in Israel’s interest to just maintain the status quo. Keep Gaza isolated and blockaded (because Hamas is in power). Keep slowly expanding settlements in the West Bank to build out a buffer with Palestinians. Israel was essentially playing the long game because despite the constant uprisings in West Bank, and threat of Hezbollah across in Lebanon, that was still a more desirable outcome than negotiating for peace. Because you can’t negotiate for peace with terror organizations. That shouldn’t even need to be typed out because it’s obvious.

Before 10/7, if Israel woke up one morning and said, “ok, enough of this: “here’s Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem as your capital; we’re lifting all blockades so you can import/export whatever you want: build up your military as you wish; live in peace and let us live in peace”. Do you think this would have satisfied Hamas/Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad? Does anyone here truly believe they all would have said “mission accomplished!” and set aside their extremist agendas and lived in peace with Israel? There’s just no way, and anyone who believes that is extremely naive or has no understanding of how these groups operate or what their ultimate goal is. All it would have done would have moved the dangerous groups even closer to Israel’s border - essentially a suicide wish.

As long as Hezbollah/Hamas exist and Iran is funding them, and yelling that the Zionist enemy must be defeated, there is absolutely no opportunity for peace and no opportunity to even begin discussing peace.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This whole post is 'might means right' pretzel logic that values civilians in some countries more than civilians in others.

Good times ahead for those of us on planet earth.

[Language]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

This whole post is 'might means right' pretzel logic that values civilians in some countries more than civilians in others.

Good times ahead for those of us on planet earth.

Sorry if my post didn’t align with your whimsical and fairy tale views of how the real world works. In reality, certain groups get screwed more than others. It’s the way it has been and the way it always will be.

I was born in Kyiv and my home country is currently being invaded. I have tens of relatives that were also exterminated in the Holocaust. The real world is brutal and it’s easy to say everyone should be treated equal. Dude, I would love that. But it’s disconnected from reality and instead of drive-by slamming my post, why don’t you answer the last question I posed?

If Israel gave in tomorrow to a two-state solution, with full autonomy for Palestinians with no oversight, would that make Israel safer or not? My argument is it would put extremist elements even closer to their border. What do you think?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Language

Sorry if my post didn’t align with your whimsical and fairy tale views of how the real world works. In reality, certain groups get screwed more than others. It’s the way it has been and the way it always will be.

I was born in Kyiv and my home country is currently being invaded. I have tens of relatives that were also exterminated in the Holocaust. The real world is brutal and it’s easy to say everyone should be treated equal. Dude, I would love that. But it’s disconnected from reality and instead of drive-by slamming my post, why don’t you answer the last question I posed?

If Israel gave in tomorrow to a two-state solution, with full autonomy for Palestinians with no oversight, would that make Israel safer or not? My argument is it would put extremist elements even closer to their border. What do you think?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Language

It’s infuriating, saddening and utmost illogical how impotent the U.S. has become in regards to helping Ukraine. In many years this will be looked back as a giant blunder, unless of course the entire U.S. administration is under the Russian spell by then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You didn't have this view point when it came to Ukraine.

You said the world is brutal and excuse Israel at every turn but want the States to help ukraine.

You don't care about Russians fears either? Hmmm

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

This whole post is 'might means right' pretzel logic that values civilians in some countries more than civilians in others.

Good times ahead for those of us on planet earth.

might isn't right but might decides what's right, Palestine's future is either the same as our native population's, they accept they have lost and take what crumbs fall from the table or one side or the other are wiped out, it seems likely that is going to be Palestine although in 50 or 100 years it is possible the balance of power falls the other way and we see the slaughter of millions of jews

This isnt 'right' or 'good' but it is how every conflict like this has always ended

[Zary's-Mustache]

How many times are you going to say the same thing AFC? You've literally said that like 20 times in this thread.

[Language]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

You didn't have this view point when it came to Ukraine.

You said the world is brutal and excuse Israel at every turn but want the States to help ukraine.

You don't care about Russians fears either? Hmmm

I’m actually not following your point at all, as well as your last question is very unclear to me.

Are you questioning how I can support Ukraine and Israel at the same time?

Should I be asking you where was your moral outrage and posting history during the Syrian civil war? I really don’t get your post at all tbh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Language

I’m actually not following your point at all, as well as your last question is very unclear to me.

Are you questioning how I can support Ukraine and Israel at the same time?

Should I be asking you where was your moral outrage and posting history during the Syrian civil war? I really don’t get your post at all tbh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My point is very clear. You said "that's war" when it comes to Israel killing civilians and that the more powerful army dictates things. You excuse Israel at every turn with it being how war works. I guess Russia is just doing war things, right?

You didn't carry that same energy with Ukraine.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

How many times are you going to say the same thing AFC? You've literally said that like 20 times in this thread.

if somethings true it bears repeating, anything I said wrong? is there a pathway you see that Israel can be forced into when we both know that no other country is going to bother, that Iran's support and the US call for moderation is all performative? is there something Palestinians can do to force Israel into an agreement on their own as that is the only way it happens?

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

if somethings true it bears repeating, anything I said wrong? is there a pathway you see that Israel can be forced into when we both know that no other country is going to bother, that Iran's support and the US call for moderation is all performative? is there something Palestinians can do to force Israel into an agreement on their own as that is the only way it happens?

It's just weird to keep repeating that. The sky is blue, we don't need to keep repeating that.

Everyone knows Israel is the stronger power here yet you continue to say it like you get some kind of joy in saying it.

[afc wimbledon]

I mean if you want me to agree with you that Israel are being utter ######bags right now massively overreacting to Oct 7th I'd agree, you want me to agree that Likud and the far right settlers are going to use this to steal more land and destroy what little Palestinians have I would also agree, that Netanyahu is using it to stay in power and out of jail at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dead Palestinians and Lebanese civilians and a world wide rise in antisemitism (ironically the selfish prick doesn't really care about Jews either)I would also agree

doesn't change the practical reality that the most Palestine will ever have is what it has now, that there is no pathway that gets them more, everything is a loss and there best bet is utter surrender as unpalatable as that is, all and any resistance just costs them lives and land

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Language

No doubt that Israeli government has their own extremists. But I’m cheering for the country and people that ultimately want to live in peace with their neighbors, and not the ones that perpetually start wars, are death cults, and celebrate martyrdom.

You should give “not cheering on death” a try. It’s pretty great. You get to have a realistic perspective on war and what the inevitable result is going to be without being so morally vacant that you reason yourself into the perpetual cycle of hate and indifference to human suffering that extremists and the death cults you apparently are against feed off.

If you’re “cheering” in this situation, given the serious and ongoing cost of innocent lives, you should ask yourself how much different you are than the people who cheered on October 7. Even if you don’t gain a different perspective about your own views, maybe you’ll gain a different one about theirs.

There’s nothing moral about a pursuit of peace that breeds more violence and death than that lack of peace ever brought.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I mean if you want me to agree with you that Israel are being utter ######bags right now massively overreacting to Oct 7th I'd agree, you want me to agree that Likud and the far right settlers are going to use this to steal more land and destroy what little Palestinians have I would also agree, that Netanyahu is using it to stay in power and out of jail at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dead Palestinians and Lebanese civilians and a world wide rise in antisemitism (ironically the selfish prick doesn't really care about Jews either)I would also agree

doesn't change the practical reality that the most Palestine will ever have is what it has now, that there is no pathway that gets them more, everything is a loss and there best bet is utter surrender as unpalatable as that is, all and any resistance just costs them lives and land

Palestinians, like Lebanese people, don’t actually have a choice in the matter. So I’m not sure why you’re putting the continuation of this on them.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Palestinians, like Lebanese people, don’t actually have a choice in the matter. So I’m not sure why you’re putting the continuation of this on them.

well if you mean the poor sod trying to live his average life I would agree, that also applies to most Israelis, when I use the term 'Palestinian' I mean Hamas, the PA the power structure that control the day-to-day life of Palestinian people and control the resistance.

The one thing I have often wondered if if the leadership of Hamas are a bit simple and have been conned into thinking they have pathway to victory via Iranian and Islamic support or if they, like Hezbollah and Iran are just cynically sacrificing hundreds of thousands of their own people for their own grift while living a nice life outside Gaza

Hamas could lay down their arms and leave Gaza tomorrow and save tens maybe hundreds of thousands of their people

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

‘Might makes right’ is such a dumb and morally vacant expression that I’d be humiliated to even utter it, let alone espouse it as a basis for my ‘realistic’ world view.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

‘Might makes right’ is such a dumb and morally vacant expression that I’d be humiliated to even utter it, let alone espouse it as a basis for my ‘realistic’ world view.

I agree morally, practically if I'm at a crosswalk and the little white man is flashing on the light but the semi-trailor isnt even slowing down I can step out and assert my moral and legal right to cross the intersection or I can stay alive, might is right doesnt describe what the powerful party should do, it describes how the weaker party should view things

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I agree morally, practically if I'm at a crosswalk and the little white man is flashing on the light but the semi-trailor isnt even slowing down I can step out and assert my moral and legal right to cross the intersection or I can stay alive, might is right doesnt describe what the powerful party should do, it describes how the weaker party should view things

Checkmate.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Sorry, what I said ‘isn’t true’ ?! The west hasn’t meddled? Or did you mean it’s not the sole reason?

People so desperate to disagree with others here that they can’t admit the most obvious things that someone else posts.

You said the middle East hasn't had lasting peace because of the West. The West certainly plays a large role, but there are many inherent conflicts that run independent of the West and would be ongoing without the West.