Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fuzz]

And Israel would just leave the West Bank then?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

And Israel would just leave the West Bank then?

Perhaps I am a hopeful person. But I think that the moderate parties would end up with control of the government rather than the hard right as there would no longer be the imminent threat of rocket attacks.

The moderate governments would likely end expansion of settlements. Would they return existing ones and historic boarders who knows.

But the current expansion into the West Bank is being done under the back drop of the Gaza war. Without the war the pseudo-justification would disappear.

What do you think would happen Iran didn’t supply cash or weapons?

[Language]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

And Israel would just leave the West Bank then?

Difficult to say, but you at least need to have things start going in the right direction somewhere. Right now it’s obviously trending completely the wrong way. Believe it or not, there are (or were before 10/7) many moderates in Israel that are for a two-state solution.

It’s possible for Arab countries to make peace with Israel. It’s been done with Egypt and Jordan. The Abraham Accords have paved the way for peace with UAE and Bahrain. Normalization with the Saudis seemed to be a reality until 10/7 occurred.

If not for Hezbollah, I believe that there could have been peace with Israel and Lebanon. The Christian Lebanese community is very moderate and has many similarities to secular society in Israel.

But you can’t have peace with neighbors that don’t even recognize your right to exist. At some point, digging through history becomes irrelevant and realities of today is what matters most. Israel is not going anywhere and that needs to be accepted. Israel would be foolish to ever accept any sort of two-state solution when it’s been proven to be so easy to infiltrate some of these societies with Islamic extremism (Hamas, Hezbollah) that are hell bent on destroying it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by GGG

Or just hypocrisy.

lol

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Language

Difficult to say, but you at least need to have things start going in the right direction somewhere. Right now it’s obviously trending completely the wrong way. Believe it or not, there are (or were before 10/7) many moderates in Israel that are for a two-state solution.

It’s possible for Arab countries to make peace with Israel. It’s been done with Egypt and Jordan. The Abraham Accords have paved the way for peace with UAE and Bahrain. Normalization with the Saudis seemed to be a reality until 10/7 occurred.

If not for Hezbollah, I believe that there could have been peace with Israel and Lebanon. The Christian Lebanese community is very moderate and has many similarities to secular society in Israel.

But you can’t have peace with neighbors that don’t even recognize your right to exist. At some point, digging through history becomes irrelevant and realities of today is what matters most. Israel is not going anywhere and that needs to be accepted. Israel would be foolish to ever accept any sort of two-state solution when it’s been proven to be so easy to infiltrate some of these societies with Islamic extremism (Hamas, Hezbollah) that are hell bent on destroying it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Israel holds the balance of power. So, it’s a little difficult to make that abundantly clear (putting the onus on other countries to make peace with Israel, or declaring what they need to accept) while absolving them of any role or responsibility in this process.

They have their own extremists and are responsible (as a government) for the deaths of more civilians than any of these extremist groups, by far. At a certain point, you have to question what you’re cheering for.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think Nage is right with his last sentence. If you could get rid of Iran funding you would open the door for peace. Israel does not fight Iran though. Only its proxies and the expense of the civilian populations.

This is so exaggerated. People should research hezbollah and see how wide spread their businesses go to drug lords in Venezuela to businesses all over the world.

Iran helps them financially but I have no doubt they'd be able to be self sustainable from their own illegal money making businesses.

It's not just Iran the boogeyman funding them and if they stopped hezbollah wouldn't just give up.

They would have more trouble but would likely just move to more low cost terrorism like blowing up things and suicide bombings.

The road block to peace in the Middle East starts with Israel.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

This is so exaggerated. People should research hezbollah and see how wide spread their businesses go to drug lords in Venezuela to businesses all over the world.

Iran helps them financially but I have no doubt they'd be able to be self sustainable from their own illegal money making businesses.

It's not just Iran the boogeyman funding them and if they stopped hezbollah wouldn't just give up.

They would have more trouble but would likely just move to more low cost terrorism like blowing up things and suicide bombings.

The road block to peace in the Middle East starts with Israel.

I agree Israel has the power to end this. So how do you get Israel to elect a less brutal government?

[afc wimbledon]

The road block to peace in the middle east is both Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO/Fatah/Black September (showing my age here) etc etc and to think otherwise is absurd, neither side is prepared to cede an inch, if Israel withdrew from Gaza and the West Bank it would receive no guarantee of peace because in truth no one could give them one.

While most Palestinians would likely be resigned to accepting Gaza and most of the West Bank back there is still a chunk of extremists who will accept nothing less than Israel's total elimination and an independent tiny Palestine would still be a poverty stricken hole, still reliant on Israel for water and power and with little hope (like Egypt, Jordan and Syria are now) how long would those young men be happy to watch Israeli's live in luxury on land that used to be Arab before deciding they needed to take up arms again?

There are some problems that don't have a solution, this is one of them, there is nothing either side can do that is good enough for the other side in truth, and both sides are also morally in the right, it is unreasonable to think Jews will give up Israel and equally unreasonable to expect Palestinians to forget their land was stolen, maybe in a century or so that changes but right now there is nothing that fixes this, at best we can hope for a truce

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GGG

Perhaps I am a hopeful person. But I think that the moderate parties would end up with control of the government rather than the hard right as there would no longer be the imminent threat of rocket attacks.

The moderate governments would likely end expansion of settlements. Would they return existing ones and historic boarders who knows.

But the current expansion into the West Bank is being done under the back drop of the Gaza war. Without the war the pseudo-justification would disappear.

What do you think would happen Iran didn’t supply cash or weapons?

I think Hamas and Hezbollah would find other sources. They'd do what they can. I don't think their is a way to limit their attacks, because people with no hope who feel wronged and see their position as unmovable aren't going to just stop. Perhaps their attacks would get less effective, but I think that just draws in other support in the long run.

Unless a drastic changes in Israeli government, even with no funding for the enemy, I just don't see that their final goal changes. The current people in charge see the land as theirs to be re-claimed from historic times. And this would continue to motivate others outside to fund violence.

You asked in your last post "how do you get Israel to elect a less brutal government?" and I think that is key. But I don't know how you do that, given the feelings of the people about their historic rights to the land, and the threat to their safety. It's really about strong education(acknowledging that current tactics are the same as have been used since Israel's creation, and fail over and over) and yes, my old hill, rejecting religion that is the ultimate source of most of this.

In summary, no, I don't see anything fundamentally changing, which means the best thing for humanity is for Israel to stop responding the way they do. Defend themselves the best they can, the reality is they've contributed so much to this that accepting some level of violence against them is the cost of their actions they will have to live with for the time being. The rest of the world must step in to help Palestinians rebuild without Hamas running the show, and Palestinians MUST have some sense of hope for a future without fear of loss, and the best way for that to happen is for Israel to allow a Palestinian state, preferably going back to the UN plan, or at worst, the 1949 situation. Without hope, you just create more terrorists.

[GGG]

You saying the Israel Government should stop responding the way they do is about as effective as saying Hamas should. Neither the current Israeli government or Hamas believe that any of their actions are wrong.

The only potential source of change are external to those two bodies. Israeli’s electing someone different or Hamas and Hezbolah being handcuffed in their ability to execute terrorism. Essentially it’s the US needs to threaten to cut off Israel or the world needs to deal with Iran.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

It's nice to see one society returning the belongings of another back to them:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1838850652274864424

Because as well agree, all of us would feel bad if we didn't get back something we own, like a home:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1838586180255801505

It looks like they're using bulldozers to quickly sweep up those belongings:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1838919335479292151

Jenin is in Gaza right? Right? That's where the Israeli army has cause to uproot and kill civilians I believe.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Two Canadians killed by the most moral army in the world while fleeing (exactly what Israel told them to do).

More terrorism by Israeli terrorist state.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada...lict-1.7050926

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I disagree. Zionism was the attempt at undoing the colonialism. Many countries were created at the time Israel was created, included almost all of Israel's neighbors. Once the Ottoman empire ended, the Brits were basically tasked with nation building, along with the UN.

Infiltrating an area with settlers (~1M foreigners came to the area post WWII) and exerting political control (forming a new nation) meets the definition of colonialism. And hey, it was the British doing this - basically their global playbook which I think we'd all agree is rather colonial.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

It certainly proved to be true. Every jew was kicked out of the countries surrounding Israel while Israel maintained their Muslim population.

Wait - are we talking about different things here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_P...ion_and_flight

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Every other country is living with the same rules as Israel - is Israel the only country you feel this way about? Israel is not segregated, a significant portion of their country is not Jewish. And you are blaming the girl in the pretty dress here, zionism (the idea that jews should have a state) is not the cause, Islamic extremism is the cause.

Every other country is not living with the same rules as Israel. There are many others, for sure, and I feel the same way about any country that does not grant equal rights to all citizens (or discriminant denial of a pathway to citizenship, as some countries do).

There are absolutely systemically different realities of being a non-Jew in Israel, all the way up to how the law is applied. We can make all sorts of comparisons about how their neighbours are worse, and I would absolutely agree, but it's still not a fair statement to say there is equality in Israel.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

From Iran to the proxies, they make it very clear who they want destroyed. But if you aren't paying attention, there is the same wave of destruction across north Africa and more and more territory is being taken over.

The solution lies in Iran, not Israel, and the sooner the entire world rejects what Iran wants to deliver, the sooner we can find peace.

No argument here, we're in agreement.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

The road block to peace in the Middle East starts with Israel.

This is just not true.

The roadblock as pointed out is Israel and every enemy of Israel.

Both sides of the conflict can sit there and say there is no point for them to seek peace, because the other side isn't cooperating, and they'd both be right. It's like two toddlers fighting, and it won't end until they grow up or the parents step in.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

This is just not true.

The roadblock as pointed out is Israel and every enemy of Israel.

Both sides of the conflict can sit there and say there is no point for them to seek peace, because the other side isn't cooperating, and they'd both be right. It's like two toddlers fighting, and it won't end until they grow up or the parents step in.

That's why I said "starts" with Israel. Israel is continuing to steal land. As we speak, there are settlers taking over more Palestinian land.

Of course all sides need to be a participant in peace but Israel is the power in the Middle east so no peace will happen until they stop stealing more land and killing of innocent Palestinians and giving them basic human rights.

When israeli politicians are openly saying they want Gazans to leave Gaza in exchange for food and water, that tells you all you need to know about Israel's stance on peace.

Kicking people out of their homes is not peace even if it feels more peaceful to Israelis.

Does this sound like a country wanting peace? Or does it sound genocidal?

“Those who leave will receive food and water,” Giora Eiland, a retired Israeli military general who is spearheading the proposal, says in a slickly produced video posted online earlier this month. “But in a week the entire territory of the northern Gaza Strip will become military territory, and this military territory as far as we are concerned, no supplies will enter it.”

Israeli national broadcaster Kan, a CNN affiliate, reported on Sunday that Netanyahu, in a closed-door meeting with the Knesset’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, said that the plan “makes a lot of sense.”

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

That's why I said "starts" with Israel. Israel is continuing to steal land. As we speak, there are settlers taking over more Palestinian land.

Yup, but someone can go write the same post about Hamas/Iran etc., and their point is just as valid.

Saying it starts with any single party means it never actually starts at all.

[Bagor]

Puts Trump and Biden to shame.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1838571329496162542

[indes]

The middle East hasn't seen lasting peace ever. Time to figure out how to free those poor people from religion and have them all stop killing each other.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by indes

The middle East hasn't seen lasting peace ever. Time to figure out how to free those poor people from religion and have them all stop killing each other.

This is ahistorical.

The middle east hasn't 'seen lasting peace' because there is no restraint from the West in their continuous meddling in the middle east. Invade countries, overthrow political parties, expose societies to violence, foment unrest by arming one faction after another.

People act like citizens in these countries are just sitting around drinking tea and playing backgammon and then suddenly get bored and say 'hey let's go act violently.' Their lives have had violence forced on them for decades due to the actions of the West.

You see similar dynamics for central america as well. People tsk tsk and say 'Oh Haiti is a mess, look at how those citizens can't keep a government functioning'.. but hey let's take a look at how the US continually interferes, politically and with violence, in Haiti's society every time they make choices for themselves.

But no cause and effect can ever be suggested. They're just primitives that can't 'stop killing each other'

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

This is ahistorical.

The middle east hasn't 'seen lasting peace' because there is no restraint from the West in their continuous meddling in the middle east. Invade countries, overthrow political parties, expose societies to violence, foment unrest by arming one faction after another.

People act like citizens in these countries are just sitting around drinking tea and playing backgammon and then suddenly get bored and say 'hey let's go act violently.' Their lives have had violence forced on them for decades due to the actions of the West.

You see similar dynamics for central america as well. People tsk tsk and say 'Oh Haiti is a mess, look at how those citizens can't keep a government functioning'.. but hey let's take a look at how the US continually interferes, politically and with violence, in Haiti's society every time they make choices for themselves.

But no cause and effect can ever be suggested. They're just primitives that can't 'stop killing each other'

Not to downplay the West's meddling, but this isn't true either. The area ha been the forum for competing empires and religions since the dawn of history, and that continues to today. In fact, most of the violence occurs between various religious factions, but we just don't hear that much about it, as it doesn't concern Israel.

At the end of WWI, you had the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, which had become a Turkish colonial exercise. Massive power vacuums left behind. That was never going to play out peacefully with or without the West. Even before the West became involved, Turkey was committing some of the worst attrocities in history. Genocides of Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, etc...