[Rumour] Giordano Extension. Kypreos: Starting point is $72 million over 8 years

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by New Era

I said this in another thread and I restate it here as well. Every dollar overpaid to one player has to come out of the budget elsewhere. You really need to see the numbers in action to get a better understanding of what a few dollars here and there means. Take a $70M budget as an example, which is a fair number to use considering the cap and the space you need for call-ups for injuries and such. I would think a healthy budget breakdown is going to look like $40M on forwards, $24M on defense, and $6M on goaltending. So something like this, taking names out the mix.

$7M-$7M-$5M
$3M-$5M-$3M
$2M-$3M-$2M
$1M-$1M-$1M
$.75M-$.75M

$7M-$5M
$4M-$3M
$2M-$1.5M
.75M

$5M
$1M

Great post NE, this breakdown really gives us an idea of how screwed we are for how much above the $$ value of a 2nd pairing D when Gio regeresses. Now we have Brodie/Hamilton locked up for a good term, but we will probably have 3 $7M players (Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett) so the dollars have to come somewhere. Frolik is already a touch on the high side for a 2nd line RWer.

Tough situation... I honestly thought this would get done in July. Now that its dragged on, and looking at this breakdown (and the fact that we got Hamilton) I'm not sure we can actually fit Gio into the mix here if he wants big term/dollars.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Great post NE, this breakdown really gives us an idea of how screwed we are for how much above the $$ value of a 2nd pairing D when Gio regeresses. Now we have Brodie/Hamilton locked up for a good term, but we will probably have 3 $7M players (Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett) so the dollars have to come somewhere. Frolik is already a touch on the high side for a 2nd line RWer.

Tough situation... I honestly thought this would get done in July. Now that its dragged on, and looking at this breakdown (and the fact that we got Hamilton) I'm not sure we can actually fit Gio into the mix here if he wants big term/dollars.

I don't think the Flames are in that bad of shape to be honest. I think the trade for Hamilton was brilliant, as long as they don't make the same mistake they did when they signed Bouweester, and move Giordano while they have the chance. I think a budget can work quite well. I see something like this by the end of this coming season or into the 2016-17 season.

Gaudreau ($6M)-Monahan ($6M)-Hudler($4.5M)
Gaudreau and Monahan signed to Oiler deals. Hudler signed to a retirement contact (6 years/$27M)
Colborne ($2M)-Backlund ($3.5M)-Frolik ($4.3M)
Bouma ($2.2M)-Bennett ($.925M)-Poirier ($.925M)
Ferland ($1M)-Arnold ($.825M)-Jooris ($1M)
Klimchuk ($.863M)-Smith/Hathaway ($.7M)

Total: $34.8

Hamilton ($5.75M)-Brodie ($4.65M)
Franson ($4M)-Russell ($4M)
Franson signed at 4 years/$16M, Russell signed at 4 years/$16M
Nakladal ($.82M)-Wotherspoon($.925M)
Morrison ($.925M)

Total: $21.1

Ramo ($3.8M)
Ortio ($.85M)

Total: $4.7

Total cap hit: $60.6, which still leaves space for future contracts for Bennett and co.

That will mean the Flames move Giordano, Stajan, Raymond, and Jones in primary deals, and leave some other good young assets to chip in here and there so they can keep the system well stocked, or bring in some stronger young players to supplement the team. Just my thoughts on budget anyways.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by New Era

I don't think the Flames are in that bad of shape to be honest. I think the trade for Hamilton was brilliant, as long as they don't make the same mistake they did when they signed Bouweester, and move Giordano while they have the chance. I think a budget can work quite well. I see something like this by the end of this coming season or into the 2016-17 season.

Gaudreau ($6M)-Monahan ($6M)-Hudler($4.5M)
Gaudreau and Monahan signed to Oiler deals. Hudler signed to a retirement contact (6 years/$27M)
Colborne ($2M)-Backlund ($3.5M)-Frolik ($4.3M)
Bouma ($2.2M)-Bennett ($.925M)-Poirier ($.925M)
Ferland ($1M)-Arnold ($.825M)-Jooris ($1M)
Klimchuk ($.863M)-Smith/Hathaway ($.7M)

Total: $34.8

Hamilton ($5.75M)-Brodie ($4.65M)
Franson ($4M)-Russell ($4M)
Franson signed at 4 years/$16M, Russell signed at 4 years/$16M
Nakladal ($.82M)-Wotherspoon($.925M)
Morrison ($.925M)

Total: $21.1

Ramo ($3.8M)
Ortio ($.85M)

Total: $4.7

Total cap hit: $60.6, which still leaves space for future contracts for Bennett and co.

That will mean the Flames move Giordano, Stajan, Raymond, and Jones in primary deals, and leave some other good young assets to chip in here and there so they can keep the system well stocked, or bring in some stronger young players to supplement the team. Just my thoughts on budget anyways.

I do like the mock up, and it's kind of reassuring, but the assumption of every questionable/overpaid contract being moved is quite lofty.

If Treliving could trade Stajan, Raymond and Jones with no bad/overpaid contracts coming back he would have done all three yesterday.

Moving Jones/Raymond/Stajan isn't impossible, but pretty much guarantee that we're taking back roster players with significant salary if you're predicting future cap implications.

You have to remember almost every GM in the league is dealing with their own version of those players, so while just clearing them out for low draft picks seems easy and doable in theory, it doesn't happen that easily, and we'll likely be stuck with two out of the three when all is said and done, imo.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by flameswin

If Treliving could trade Stajan, Raymond and Jones with no bad/overpaid contracts coming back he would have done all three yesterday.

Definitely a challenge, which is why certain young players (Granlund, Shore, etc.) were not on the roster. I think we may have to kick in an asset to get some of these contracts moved.

[Strange Brew]

Yeah you have every high contract being moved out. Stajan, Raymond, Engelland, Wideman, Smid. If that had a chance of happening, we would have seen some movement already.

And no Giordano.

Your scenario puts us in good shape with the cap but I kind of enjoyed being a playoff team too.

[868904]

Veterans are not bad. Some of you have to stop thinking like an Oiler fan.

I don't want Engelland, Stajan or Sideman moved. They are good players and very important to the culture and Chemistry of the team. I doubt Treliving is in any hurry to move these guys either.

Jones is up at the deadline, and I'm sure the Flames could move him easily if they wanted to then. Smid is a good player who is paid appropriately, it too bad the Oiler ruined his health.

Raymond has been Treliving only mistake but there was no guarantee that Gaudreau would do what he did so quickly. Raymond was an insurance policy, an expensive one. There still is no rush to get rid of him and there's no need to package assets to do so.

Flames are fine this season with the cap and all the so called "bad contracts" will be in their last year next season which makes them easy to move.

[GioforPM]

For all we know Raymond will pull a Wideman and totally justify his contract this year. He was off to a pretty good start pre-injury. His problem is that he really has but one role, and the team has better and cheaper and younger options in that role. He's not like Stajan, who is useful up and down the lineup and in all areas of the game, on and off the ice.

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by 868904

Veterans are not bad. Some of you have to stop thinking like an Oiler fan.

I don't want Engelland, Stajan or Sideman moved. They are good players and very important to the culture and Chemistry of the team. I doubt Treliving is in any hurry to move these guys either.

Jones is up at the deadline, and I'm sure the Flames could move him easily if they wanted to then. Smid is a good player who is paid appropriately, it too bad the Oiler ruined his health.

Raymond has been Treliving only mistake but there was no guarantee that Gaudreau would do what he did so quickly. Raymond was an insurance policy, an expensive one. There still is no rush to get rid of him and there's no need to package assets to do so.

Flames are fine this season with the cap and all the so called "bad contracts" will be in their last year next season which makes them easy to move.

If we need to shave off $2M and it comes down to letting a skilled player walk so we can keep the veterans or replacing Engelland with a guy like Wotherspoon/Schlemko in the lineup...that's an easy call.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by 868904

Veterans are not bad. Some of you have to stop thinking like an Oiler fan.

I don't want Engelland, Stajan or Sideman moved. They are good players and very important to the culture and Chemistry of the team. I doubt Treliving is in any hurry to move these guys either.

Jones is up at the deadline, and I'm sure the Flames could move him easily if they wanted to then. Smid is a good player who is paid appropriately, it too bad the Oiler ruined his health.

Raymond has been Treliving only mistake but there was no guarantee that Gaudreau would do what he did so quickly. Raymond was an insurance policy, an expensive one. There still is no rush to get rid of him and there's no need to package assets to do so.

Flames are fine this season with the cap and all the so called "bad contracts" will be in their last year next season which makes them easy to move.

I agree about the veterans. Pisses me off when folks constantly whine about the "Bad Contracts" for Engo, Stajan and Wideman. These guys are very valuable pieces for more than one reason. Engo was willing to play anywhere in the lineup as a reliable guy which made it a challenge for young guys to crack the lineup. That's exactly what you want. What's more, he really stepped it up when Gio went down, and had a good showing in the playoffs. Stajan of course being a good teammate on and off the ice, can play up and down the lineup. Well worth the money for these guys.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

For all we know Raymond will pull a Wideman and totally justify his contract this year. He was off to a pretty good start pre-injury. His problem is that he really has but one role, and the team has better and cheaper and younger options in that role. He's not like Stajan, who is useful up and down the lineup and in all areas of the game, on and off the ice.

If Calgary has a "bad contract" it's Raymond. But even still, I classify bad contracts as a player so overpaid, he can't be moved. Raymond can be moved. Raymond has some tools, but like you said, he doesn't seem to be the right fit in this group. With the emergence of Ferly, the signing of Frolik, Byron coming back, and a forward or two ready to make the jump from the minors to the majors, Raymond can (and should) be moved out.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by 868904

Veterans are not bad. Some of you have to stop thinking like an Oiler fan.

I don't want Engelland, Stajan or Sideman moved. They are good players and very important to the culture and Chemistry of the team. I doubt Treliving is in any hurry to move these guys either.

Jones is up at the deadline, and I'm sure the Flames could move him easily if they wanted to then. Smid is a good player who is paid appropriately, it too bad the Oiler ruined his health.

Raymond has been Treliving only mistake but there was no guarantee that Gaudreau would do what he did so quickly. Raymond was an insurance policy, an expensive one. There still is no rush to get rid of him and there's no need to package assets to do so.

Flames are fine this season with the cap and all the so called "bad contracts" will be in their last year next season which makes them easy to move.

I don't see people thinking like an oiler fan. Its about assessing what the team can afford given decisions already made. If you want to re-sign Gio, Hudler and Russell I think you need a plan beyond this season. I understand not wanting to give up the players you mentioned, but then what do you do?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by 868904

Veterans are not bad. Some of you have to stop thinking like an Oiler fan.

I don't want Engelland, Stajan or Sideman moved. They are good players and very important to the culture and Chemistry of the team. I doubt Treliving is in any hurry to move these guys either.

Jones is up at the deadline, and I'm sure the Flames could move him easily if they wanted to then. Smid is a good player who is paid appropriately, it too bad the Oiler ruined his health.

Raymond has been Treliving only mistake but there was no guarantee that Gaudreau would do what he did so quickly. Raymond was an insurance policy, an expensive one. There still is no rush to get rid of him and there's no need to package assets to do so.

Flames are fine this season with the cap and all the so called "bad contracts" will be in their last year next season which makes them easy to move.

"Oiler fan" comment is obviously out of line but other than that, you're not completely out to lunch here.

Here's (one version) of our roster by games played. A thing that stands out is that outside of Frolik (who has way more games played than I would have thought btw), literally everyone above the 300 GP line is being speculated as guys that could/should be moved by a notable number of people on CP.

(Of course with Hudler and Giordano these are purely contract issues. Mostly with Wideman too.)

Stajan 774
Wideman 707
Hudler 604
Smid 561
Raymond 513
Frolik 512
Russell 511
Giordano 510
Jones 387
Hiller 385
Engelland 319
Brodie 266
Bouma 199
Bollig 187
Hamilton 178
Colborne 160
Monahan 156
Byron 138
Rämö 129
Gaudreau 81
Jooris 60
Ferland 26
Bennett 1


(Also, Russell has more NHL games than Giordano? Wouldn't have thought.)

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by New Era

I don't think the Flames are in that bad of shape to be honest. I think the trade for Hamilton was brilliant, as long as they don't make the same mistake they did when they signed Bouweester, and move Giordano while they have the chance. I think a budget can work quite well. I see something like this by the end of this coming season or into the 2016-17 season.

Gaudreau ($6M)-Monahan ($6M)-Hudler($4.5M)
Gaudreau and Monahan signed to Oiler deals. Hudler signed to a retirement contact (6 years/$27M)
Colborne ($2M)-Backlund ($3.5M)-Frolik ($4.3M)
Bouma ($2.2M)-Bennett ($.925M)-Poirier ($.925M)
Ferland ($1M)-Arnold ($.825M)-Jooris ($1M)
Klimchuk ($.863M)-Smith/Hathaway ($.7M)

Total: $34.8

Hamilton ($5.75M)-Brodie ($4.65M)
Franson ($4M)-Russell ($4M)
Franson signed at 4 years/$16M, Russell signed at 4 years/$16M
Nakladal ($.82M)-Wotherspoon($.925M)
Morrison ($.925M)

Total: $21.1

Ramo ($3.8M)
Ortio ($.85M)

Total: $4.7

Total cap hit: $60.6, which still leaves space for future contracts for Bennett and co.

That will mean the Flames move Giordano, Stajan, Raymond, and Jones in primary deals, and leave some other good young assets to chip in here and there so they can keep the system well stocked, or bring in some stronger young players to supplement the team. Just my thoughts on budget anyways.

That is one weak, inexperienced lineup. Hello lottery.

Also, if you're trading Gio at his peak shouldn't you plan to get a good player back?

[Hackey]

I don't think it's a lottery team but some of the salaries seem quite low. Hudler I'm sure is gonna want more than a 500k raise. I'm sure he would have no trouble finding a 5 year deal on the open market. Gaudreau and Monahan I'm hoping for 6 as well but I could see those guys costing more if they have good seasons. With some of the contracts handed out this summer it seems like salaries are increasing. Obviously saw new salary levels set with the Kane and Toews deals. Franson and Russell at 4 seems a bit low as well but I guess it's possible.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by edslunch

That is one weak, inexperienced lineup. Hello lottery.

Also, if you're trading Gio at his peak shouldn't you plan to get a good player back?

That team is significantly better than the team we went to the playoffs with last year. A solid #2 LW is the biggest glaring problem.

No point in guessing who Gio would be traded for. Probably picks and prospects anyway.

[bax]

Originally Posted by DJones

That team is significantly better than the team we went to the playoffs with last year. A solid #2 LW is the biggest glaring problem.



No point in guessing who Gio would be traded for. Probably picks and prospects anyway.

Big disagreement from me. At best that team is on par with the team from last season (taking into account young players developing well).

And the goal is to win a championship. Not barely make the playoffs and get booted in the second round.

[saillias]

I would be pretty disappointed with that lineup. Our defense has become unequivocally worse and had its scoring chopped off. And somehow managed to not be any cheaper.

Russell at 4 mil.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by edslunch

That is one weak, inexperienced lineup. Hello lottery.

Also, if you're trading Gio at his peak shouldn't you plan to get a good player back?

With Treliving's track record of recent trades and acquisitions, I'm extremely curious to see what we could get back for Gio. If Berra (although a Burke Trade) can get a 2nd, and Sven can get a 2nd, What does Gio get? McSaviour?

[YYC in LAX]

I have a feeling Gio doesn't want to talk hockey over the summer and a deal will come during training camp.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by bax

Big disagreement from me. At best that team is on par with the team from last season (taking into account young players developing well).

And the goal is to win a championship. Not barely make the playoffs and get booted in the second round.

Am I missing something? Gio wasn't there for the play-offs. After that Wideman and Stajan are the only noticeable differences.

Hamilton, Franson, plus the young guys developing seem like a massive improvement.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Originally Posted by DJones

Am I missing something? Gio wasn't there for the play-offs. After that Wideman and Stajan are the only noticeable differences.

Hamilton, Franson, plus the young guys developing seem like a massive improvement.

Young guys developing is always nice, but cannot be relied upon. Certainly not several young guys who have never been NHL regulars.

We always seem to be high on prospects because we don't know them well yet. We know our veterans well, and we know their flaws. Just because we don't know a prospects' limitations doesn't mean that the unknown is better than a known. Scouting and coaching staff are some of the only people with enough knowledge to make substantiated claims on that topic, which they will need to do in training camp.