Connecticut School Shooting

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by Minnie

An online xian friend posted this in response:

Its a pretty good response from a real Christian directed at "Christians" who use their "faith" to inspire hatred, bigotry, and fear. Any argument directed back would be hypocritical, but typical of the religious right.

[Derek Sutton]

Like I said, you have two choices, so you would only want the bad guy with a gun? With proper training a person with a gun may have eliminated this situation quite quickly. I don't mean guns dolled out to everyone. If no one can defend themselves or anyone else, they are all just potential victims.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Seriously? You don't think someone in a dark theatre trying to "combat the situation" would make matters worse?

Free NVGs with all pistol purchases must be mandatory.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Minnie

Yeah just what we need. More bullets spraying everywhere in total darkness. Terribly helpful, that. No thanks.

Like I said put yourself in that situation, and give it some thought. The only guy you would want with a gun is the crazy bad guy?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Why not?

Stop the sale of bullets for these guns, and they will eventualy turn into pretty paper weights.

You're kidding right?

You do realize that its extremely easy to learn how to reload yourself? So suddenly you have to ban everything involved with that as well.

And obtaining those 'materials' is extremely easy. I know that from experience.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Why not?

Stop the sale of bullets for these guns, and they will eventualy turn into pretty paper weights.

Yes I totally agree. I believe Chris Rock brought this up sometime ago "bullets should cost $1000 each." But in the USA this will not happen.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Like I said put yourslef in that situation, and give it some thought.

MOD EDIT: If you can't argue like an adult - don't argue at all.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Minnie

An online xian friend posted this in response:

That is a very good response. If only more Christians were as thoughtful instead of using God to further their political agenda.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Like I said, you have two choices, so you would only want the bad guy with a gun? With proper training a person with a gun may have eliminated this situation quite quickly. I don't mean guns dolled out to everyone. If no one can defend themselves or anyone else, they are all just potential victims.

Oh man, this is all kinds of bad idea. The majority of gun owners have never, ever, faced the business end of a weapon. If there was, using your idea, an armed patron at the theatre the death count would have been higher.

My experiences tell me this to be true.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Minnie

I did, you tool. I'll take my chances with just one shooter spraying bullets around in a dark theatre. Not some redneck dipwad that thinks he's the answer to everything with his stupid gun. Go back a few pages and watch the videos I posted.

Another person with a gun means crap all. When Gabby Giffords was shot in Arizona, and the others killed, the timing from the moment the shooter started firing to the moment they fell wounded or dead to the tarmac was FIVE seconds. Five. Your average gun holder will not have a quick enough response time to deal with that. I'll take my chances with one lone gunman.

And it's 'doled out' not dolled out. Thumbelina and friends are not handing out guns.

WHy do you have to say "Redneck....." it could just as easily be an off duty police officer?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

WHy do you have to say "Redneck....." it could just as easily be an off duty police officer?

Or it could be an individual with minimal training and visions of greatness.....

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Azure

You do realize that its extremely easy to learn how to reload yourself? So suddenly you have to ban everything involved with that as well.

And obtaining those 'materials' is extremely easy. I know that from experience.

You know how to manufacture bullets?

[_Q_]

The movie theatre argument is ######ed. So a good portion out of the 300 or so people in the theatre are armed. Some lunatic, who has prepared in his head how everything is going down goes into a dark theatre and starts firing randomly, making sure to pay close attention to anyone who looks like they could possibly be pulling out a weapon. He goes in, first person is shot dead, chaos ensues, the killer starts firing randomly. Our friend Derek Sutton along with all his buddies from "So. Al" reach to pull out their guns, but the murderer, who has already killed several people notices this and kills maybe 5 of them. The other 30 people in the theatre manage to kill the shooter somehow, but with the sound of 30 or so guns going off everyone is still panicking and starts firing randomly towards anything that sounds like gun shots. Soon you have a theatre with maybe 50 people dead, 40 of them killed through "friendly fire".

On the other hand, in most of these scenarios around the world, the killer, after being inspired by months of depression and playing Call of Duty decides that he's going down in a ball of glory. He thinks "what better way of doing this than with an assault rifle?". He realizes that it's next to impossible to obtain one legally and he has no idea where he can steal one from. So still inspired by all this, puts in some effort looking for one on the black market. He finds an illegal arms dealer in the shady part of town and is told that an AR15 will cost him around $5000. Since he works at Burger King and spent all his money on video games and comic books he'll have to save up for 8 months to be able to purchase one. He sets out to do so as he's still mad at the world and still wants to go down in a moment of infamy. So in my scenario, one of 4 things can happen. 1) the police are tipped off while he was researching how to get a weapon. 2) the police are tipped off because the killer is showing extreme signs of anxiety through the 8 months of planning and saving. 3) During those 8 months, something positive happens in his life. Maybe he loses his virginity, maybe he makes some awesome friends, or maybe his family gets him some help. 4) He gets the gun, kills a bunch of people and then kills himself. Yes it is still possible for #4 to happen, but the chances are much lower of 1, 2 or 3 are present.

So at the end, I would much rather live in a society where guns are very difficult to obtain than to have to rely on a bunch of yahoo civilians with guns to ensure my safety.

[Kybosh]

Weird, I've never seen xian meaning Christian before. To me, Xian is a big polluted city in China.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Oh man, this is all kinds of bad idea. The majority of gun owners have never, ever, faced the business end of a weapon. If there was, using your idea, an armed patron at the theatre the death count would have been higher.

My experiences tell me this to be true.

I completely agree, just because someone has taken a firearms safety course does not mean that they can be trusted in a chaotic sitaution with bullets flying and probably little lighting where they are afraid for their life to be able to identify a target and actually hit it.

shooting at paper targets and cute fuzzy deer is far different from shooting at another human being who is spraying a theatre or a school with bullets.

Having armed civillians who suddenly think that they're goi.
ng to be hero's is just as frightening as the lone gunman on a rampage.

The hero citizen is more then likely to do one of three things.

1) Blow thier footoff due to adrenal poisoning
2) Blow some innocent bystanders head off either due to that person startling the hero person by sticking their head up at the wrong time
3) gets killed because while they can sorta shoot safe and know where the safety is they don't know anything about cover and situational awareness.

It takes a minimum of 6 months of training to get a soldier used to the idea of a chaotic battlefield and how to react to it. It takes longer for a cop in a lot of ways.

Arming teachers or citizen guards is just plain stupid.

[The Fonz]

Derek, it's as if you're saying theatre/school/museum/mall shootings are inevitable. They are going to be a common occurence, so we may as well have people of the general public having guns holstered to their waste?

That's where you're missing the point. You're arguing "a bad guy with a gun and a good guy with a gun" VS "only a bad guy with a gun". As if those are the only 2 options.

How about nobody, aside from police officers, carries a gun in public.

The only way to get there is to have strict gun laws in place, and enforce them. It won't be an instant fix, but it will set the US on the right path.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Like I said, you have two choices, so you would only want the bad guy with a gun? With proper training a person with a gun may have eliminated this situation quite quickly. I don't mean guns dolled out to everyone.

There are no 'bad guys' there are just guys, and a suprising number of ordinary law abiding guys are bat #### crazy, given certain stressors in their lives.
Ultimatly the more people with guns there are in a theatre the greater chance one of them will be a wack job who might choose that day to make a 'statement' by shooting up the joint.

I think also the chances are anyone who feels the need to pack a gun all the time, everywhere, due to their paranoia that something will happen, that person is likely to be the wack job, the ordinary person who isn't on the verge of losing it cannot be arsed to lug a gun around all over the place.

Incidently all of these wack jobs are now tending to wear full body armour so there is little chance they are going to be 'taken down' by the average joe carrying a pistol.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by _Q_

The movie theatre argument is ######ed. So a good portion out of the 300 or so people in the theatre are armed. Some lunatic, who has prepared in his head how everything is going down goes into a dark theatre and starts firing randomly, making sure to pay close attention to anyone who looks like they could possibly be pulling out a weapon. He goes in, first person is shot dead, chaos ensues, the killer starts firing randomly. Our friend Derek Sutton along with all his buddies from "So. Al" reach to pull out their guns, but the murderer, who has already killed several people notices this and kills maybe 5 of them. The other 30 people in the theatre manage to kill the shooter somehow, but with the sound of 30 or so guns going off everyone is still panicking and starts firing randomly towards anything that sounds like gun shots. Soon you have a theatre with maybe 50 people dead, 40 of them killed through "friendly fire".

On the other hand, in most of these scenarios around the world, the killer, after being inspired by months of depression and playing Call of Duty decides that he's going down in a ball of glory. He thinks "what better way of doing this than with an assault rifle?". He realizes that it's next to impossible to obtain one legally and he has no idea where he can steal one from. So still inspired by all this, puts in some effort looking for one on the black market. He finds an illegal arms dealer in the shady part of town and is told that an AR15 will cost him around $5000. Since he works at Burger King and spent all his money on video games and comic books he'll have to save up for 8 months to be able to purchase one. He sets out to do so as he's still mad at the world and still wants to go down in a moment of infamy. So in my scenario, one of 4 things can happen. 1) the police are tipped off while he was researching how to get a weapon. 2) the police are tipped off because the killer is showing extreme signs of anxiety through the 8 months of planning and saving. 3) During those 8 months, something positive happens in his life. Maybe he loses his virginity, maybe he makes some awesome friends, or maybe his family gets him some help. 4) He gets the gun, kills a bunch of people and then kills himself. Yes it is still possible for #4 to happen, but the chances are much lower of 1, 2 or 3 are present.

So at the end, I would much rather live in a society where guns are very difficult to obtain than to have to rely on a bunch of yahoo civilians with guns to ensure my safety.

I totaly agree with last two paragraphs, and see no reason for anyone in the general population to own a gun. In the US though, as I've said before, this is not the reality.

How different do you think that panic level would be between 5 shots or 50 shots? I predict total chaos not matter what.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Table 5

You know how to manufacture bullets?

I do.

Part of the hobby, especially useful for non-standard calibers (mostly older guns) with expensive ammunition.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Azure

You're kidding right?

You do realize that its extremely easy to learn how to reload yourself? So suddenly you have to ban everything involved with that as well.

And obtaining those 'materials' is extremely easy. I know that from experience.

I know in Vancouver getting sulpher and charcoal is reletively easy but I doubt even the most ardent nut job is going to spend their days pissing into a bucket of earth to extract the saltpeter, not to mention that black powder would foul a modern gun fairly quickly