Ring Road To Nowhere

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Under the reserve, or the wetland, or wherever it was that the city was thinking about so we don't get continually stalled in negotiations with the
Indian band.

I'll admit I haven't looked at the economics, but there has to a be reason countries like Australia have toll roads all over the place. The municipalities bid the construction out to a company that builds the toll road, then collects the fees for (x) years after it's finished. At that point the government takes over their operation. It's been a while since I checked, but I think it's something like $5 each way per car.

Under the reserve is not possible. That is, you would have to have the same negotiations as for a surface road.

[getbak]

I'm sure it's not this simple, but if I were the Tsuu Tina, I'd build my own road with a huge shopping/entertainment area right in the middle and set up toll booths on it (if you spent enough money in the shopping area, you'd get to bypass the tolls), then offer the city/province to connect their ring road to it.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by getbak

I'm sure it's not this simple, but if I were the Tsuu Tina, I'd build my own road with a huge shopping/entertainment area right in the middle and set up toll booths on it (if you spent enough money in the shopping area, you'd get to bypass the tolls), then offer the city/province to connect their ring road to it.

The previous deal was essentially that, except the province offering to build the road and offering up all the toll money up front.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Under the reserve is not possible. That is, you would have to have the same negotiations as for a surface road.

Suspension bridge over the reserve! They don't own the airspace!

Originally Posted by getbak

I'm sure it's not this simple, but if I were the Tsuu Tina, I'd build my own road with a huge shopping/entertainment area right in the middle and set up toll booths on it (if you spent enough money in the shopping area, you'd get to bypass the tolls), then offer the city/province to connect their ring road to it.

If I was the city, I'd then find another way to route the highway and not provide access to their stupid road. Tolls on a high speed urban freeway, forget it.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

If I was the city, I'd then find another way to route the highway

Any other route that doesn't involve the reserve involves buying up copious amounts of houses to provide a roadway of a significantly lower standard.

[calgaryrocks]

or even worse, routing it so that nobody will use it because it is too far out of town. anyways, its the province that needs to figure it out with the reserve.
to me there are 4 basic options:
1) convince the reserve to allow us to build the highway through thier land
2) tunnel the highway or make a massive bridge to get past the weaselhead (likely twice the cost of what is being offered to the reserve, have to deal with environmental and safety regulations, dangerous goods route over the wetlands?)
3)expropriate houses and build in conjunction with existing roadways (more congestion on glenmore/14st/anderson)
4) build the highway out around the west side of the reserve (useless waste of money)

so the reserve is key, otherwise I think tunneling under some of lakeview and then building a massive bridge might be the way to go...but I don't want to pay for it

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Any other route that doesn't involve the reserve involves buying up copious amounts of houses to provide a roadway of a significantly lower standard.

This is what it all boils down to. Sure, they could route the road along Glenmore and 37th (along the city limits), but it would require a tighter than ideal turning radius to round that corner, speed limit reductions, and still a large number of expropriations. This is whether you go above ground or underground. So we'd get a crap road, have a major effect on Lakeview and the Weaselhead, and it would cost more.

The last offer was rejected due to some items that needed clarification (the wording of the land swap left a grey area that left the possibility that it might never happen, if I remember correctly). Why would they sign onto something that couldn't even be guaranteed?

I want to see the ring road completed as much as the next guy, but the fact of the matter is, the city and province have backed themselves into a corner quite literally by building right up to the reserve limits. All of the alternative options would give us a much lesser road at a higher cost. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I think that a deal is closer now than ever and the main sticking points require clarification and guaranteeing and not a complete renegotiation. To build an ineffective road at an astronomical cost simply to spite them, even though they don't even have to consider negotiating with the city/province in the first place if they don't want to, would be a huge mistake.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Is the toll supposed to help pay for the increased cost? I think it's safe to say that a tunneled option would cost ~$1.5 billion MORE than the original option.

If we think that the toll is just supposed to pay the extra $1.5 billion:
30,000 vehicles per day x $2 per trip = $60,000 per day.

Collecting $60,000 per day, it would take 68.5 years to raise $1.5 billion, and that doesn't include and discussion of interest paid on the original amount.

Well, that's not quite how the economics work, but yeah there are definitely challenges. I'm just tired of the continual bickering between Tsu T'ina and council, and I think it's time to move on. The longer we wait the more expensive it gets to build a bridge, tunnel, ferry, hovercraft WHATEVER. How long does it have to go on before someone finally says fata this, I'm doing it another way.

The closest model I can find that is recent is the Brisbane airport tunnel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_Link,_Brisbane try to ignore the way that it was financed. I'm sure our esteemed council could figure out a way to do it more effectively.....

[yads]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i have no officially researched this, but I would guess another two years - but that being said, they are working at extending Stoney trail from it current starting point at 17th ave Se all the way to 22x - it seems they are doing a lot of grading of the raods and building overpasses and given the remote location it is hard to tell how far along they currently are. i'd sure like to see some kind of stat on how much dirt they moved once this major project is done.

from glenmore/stoney to glenmore/HW8 will still be a fair drive - given that stoney trail and glenmore is not far from glenmore and 84th.

I'm almost positive it's not happening in 2 years. They're not even looking at widening Glenmore between 101st and Sarcee until the ring road is figured out.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

To build an ineffective road at an astronomical cost simply to spite them, even though they don't even have to consider negotiating with the city/province in the first place if they don't want to, would be a huge mistake.

Ooh, but think how easy that would make negotiations for the outer ring road! They'd know we mean business.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

There'll absolutely no chance that a cut and cover tunnel would cost anywhere close to $550 million. The construction cost for the Airport Trail tunnel is $220 million. The tunnel you are proposing would need to be significantly wider, nearly 10 times as long, significantly more complicated to build, and would still require buying out dozens of homes. I can guarantee that it would cost more than the $1.5 billion price tag of the other proposal.

I don't know where you got your information that cut and cover will be over 1.5 billion. Do you have a source or are you eyeballing it?

The price quoted is in fact 550 million for cut and cover. I know there are people that prefer the reserve route for a variety of reaons, but the cut and cover method is quoted to be cheaper, a third of the cost.

The airport tunnel is expensive because it has planes driving on it. The ring road would have a park over most of it.

They will go over budget no matter what plan they choose. So might as well go with the cheaper one.

Page 4 for plan c.

http://www.calgaryarea.com/sw/chinoo...20Plan%20C.pdf

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Any other route that doesn't involve the reserve involves buying up copious amounts of houses to provide a roadway of a significantly lower standard.

This again is not true. There are five routes planned and only one of those proposes knocking down houses.

On page 11

http://www.calgaryarea.com/sw/chinoo...20Plan%20C.pdf

It's enough to just say you support the reserve deal.

[ricosuave]

^ LOL so where are the transmission lines supposed to go?

[You Need a Thneed]

Stampsx2, you do realize that the ring road has to go west from the intersection of Glenmore/37th. The ROW south of Glamorgan is just as narrow as the one beside lakeview. You have to be able to make the corner at a reasonable speed, but in order to do that houses would have to be taken out in both Lakeview and Glamorgan. The total length of cut and cover would be ~5km, about 8 times as long as the airport Trail tunnel. Unlike the airport Trail tunnel, all of it would be in a narrow right of way, or in an environmental area. Either one of those makes the excavation and hauling much more complicated. Sure, the tunnel walls and roof would not need to be so beefy, but you would certainly have more complicated forming, horizontal and vertical curves, exit ramps, perhaps whole underground interchanges.

Frankly, whomever made up that presentation had no idea what they were talking about. It looks like a citizens group made it, not the government, or anyone else that would actually have a clue about the costs.

[V]

That presentation is awesome. Poof!! The transmission lines disappear!

The branding on the presentation is pretty impressive as well. I googled the two company names trying to understand the credentials. Didn't work so well.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

^ LOL so where are the transmission lines supposed to go?

Originally Posted by V

That presentation is awesome. Poof!! The transmission lines disappear!

The branding on the presentation is pretty impressive as well. I googled the two company names trying to understand the credentials. Didn't work so well.

I think you see them again on page 14, on the upper right on the tunnel cross-section.

[You Need a Thneed]

I Think the cost of $550 million might actually be right for what they are proposing. However, building arterial street along 37th and then just dumping the traffic onto existing roads does not help anything, and would be ineffective as a ring road.

Essentially, that presentation is comparing apples to oranges.

[You Need a Thneed]

Typed this post after only looking at the plan on my iPhone. I notice now that they have a whole bunch of access ramps and an extra leg heading east towards Crowchild. $550M for that is actually hilarious.

Their cut and cover is going to get pretty deep, too going down those embankments.

It also completely ignores Glenmore/HWY 8 from 37th Street to around 101 st, which was included in the $1.5B cost for the 2009 Proposal. The original proposal also includes the following interchanges that wouldn't be included in this "$550M" proposal:

22x
162nd Ave
Fish Creek Blvd
130th Ave
Anderson Rd
Full connection to 90th and Southland Drive
Old Strathcona Road
Sarcee Trail (this one was pretty complicated)
Westhills Way
Glenmore/37th St full interchange with flyover ramp
69th Street
Hwy 8

Also, the proposal with the reserve includes a utility ROW across the reserve North to South, mostly separate from the roadway.

For the small section that this "$550M" was addressing, it's significantly MORE expensive than the original proposal.

[Mike Vernon]

Wait a second, the city still doesn't have a plan for this ring road?? I thought they were almost finished the SE section? Does anyone have a current plan for what they have and what they are missing?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Mike Vernon

Wait a second, the city still doesn't have a plan for this ring road?? I thought they were almost finished the SE section? Does anyone have a current plan for what they have and what they are missing?

What will eventually be built is what was proposed to the reserve in 2009. (Plans are near the end) The province had open houses to look into options that didn't involve reserve land last year, but this is now posted on the Alberta Transportation website regarding that study:

This planning study has now been put on hold. Further public consultation related to the planning study is also on hold.

For now, government will focus on discussions with the Tsuu T’ina Nation regarding the 2009 agreement. We continue to work in good faith toward an agreement.

There simply isn't any option that doesn't involve the reserve that anyone is willing to do. It's simply better to wait.