Israel declares war on Hamas

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I've said it many many times, Hamas has to go, unfortunately there's going to be a lot of innocent deaths because of the way Hamas does it's business. Israel is not stopping this time.

I've also said many times how I would do it reducing a lot of innocent deaths, I also wish leaders of other countries cared about the Palestinian people as much as we do but sadly they would rather protect the high ranking scumbag Hamas in palaces and watch Palestinian's die.

Okay so you believe Israel is killing too many civilians right now and you want them to reduce it. Why are arguing against people who are pointing out when they do it?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I also wish leaders of other countries cared about the Palestinian people as much as we do

I have never ever got a sense from any of your posts that you care one iota about the Palestinian people.

Can you prove me wrong and show me?

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

...
I just fail to see how this makes Israel any safer 5-10 years from now.

It doesn't. But it makes it safer for the next 5-10 years. Chances are high that at some point in the future USA will stop supporting Israel militarily. All political things going the way they are now point to the left eventually gaining on the right and evangelical Christians losing their grip on electoral power. This means bad for Israel. The territory and the population are just too small to sustain a long war without US backing and Israel sees it too, undoubtedly. So, for now, while they still have the 5-10 years of reasonably assured US support, they will take the maximum advantage of it. I am very surprised they didn't attack the recent funerals of Hezbollah commanders. A lot of enemy in one spot. Would have been a very easy and effective strike.

My guess is that Israel will inflict as much damage as they can in the next 2-3 months on Gaza and Lebanon and then move to ceasefire and "land for peace" arrangements.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I have never ever got a sense from any of your posts that you care one iota about the Palestinian people.

Can you prove me wrong and show me?

I've said many times in this thread I feel bad for the innocent lives in Gaza.

A hell of a lot more than you have for the 1500 Jews killed or taken hostage on Oct 7th.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I've said many times in this thread I feel bad for the innocent lives in Gaza.

A hell of a lot more than you have for the 1500 Jews killed or taken hostage on Oct 7th.

Oh I've said loads of times that I find Hamas evil and repugnant.

What triggers you is when I state that I find Israel equally evil and repugnant.

You slipped by admitting that Israel was equally monstrous but deny vehemently that the deliberate sniping of children. elderly women and civilians are not terrorist acts.

Do you find the deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel to be acts of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of a Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

If not. Why not. What's the difference?

[CalgaryKid12]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Oh I've said loads of times that I find Hamas evil and repugnant.

What triggers you is when I state that I find Israel equally evil and repugnant.

You slipped by admitting that Israel was equally monstrous but deny vehemently that the deliberate sniping of children. elderly women and civilians are not terrorist acts.

Do you find the deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel to be acts of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of a Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

If not. Why not. What's the difference?

Hmmm interesting, you find Hamas evil and repugnant, but you left out the part about 1500 Jews dead or taken hostage...

Regardless, I think the issue here is that every time you criticize Hamas, you follow it up with an equal or greater criticism of Israel. Which, in my mind, effectively makes your previous criticism moot.

It's like saying "I'm sorry, but...". That person isn't actually sorry, they're just saying sorry, and then coming up with something to justify their actions.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

Hmmm interesting, you find Hamas evil and repugnant, but you left out the part about 1500 Jews dead or taken hostage...

Regardless, I think the issue here is that every time you criticize Hamas, you follow it up with an equal or greater criticism of Israel. Which, in my mind, effectively makes your previous criticism moot.

It's like saying "I'm sorry, but...". That person isn't actually sorry, they're just saying sorry, and then coming up with something to justify their actions.

You don't think they are both evil and repugnant? Is that not a possibility to consider?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

Hmmm interesting, you find Hamas evil and repugnant, but you left out the part about 1500 Jews dead or taken hostage...

Regardless, I think the issue here is that every time you criticize Hamas, you follow it up with an equal or greater criticism of Israel. Which, in my mind, effectively makes your previous criticism moot.

It's like saying "I'm sorry, but...". That person isn't actually sorry, they're just saying sorry, and then coming up with something to justify their actions.

No. You can think both are awful.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

Regardless, I think the issue here is that every time you criticize Hamas, you follow it up with an equal or greater criticism of Israel. Which, in my mind, effectively makes your previous criticism moot.

The mind of Calgary kid.

Whereby anyone that expresses disgust at Israeli terrorism, regardless of what they have expressed beforehand is by default at the very least a tolerator of Hamas.

You seem to be another one triggered by the pov that Israel's current behavior is repugnant and evil.

I'll ask you the same question then.

Do you find the deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel to be acts of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of
Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

If not. Why not. What's the difference?

And it's ok to blow the head of young children because of the Holocaust is not an acceptable answer..

[CalgaryKid12]

Originally Posted by Bagor

The mind of Calgary kid.

Whereby anyone that expresses disgust at Israeli terrorism, regardless of what they have expressed beforehand is by default at the very least a tolerator of Hamas.

You seem to be another one triggered by the pov that Israel's current behavior is repugnant and evil.

I'll ask you the same question then.

Do you find the deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel to be acts of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of
Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

If not. Why not. What's the difference?

And it's ok to blow the head of young children because of the Holocaust is not an acceptable answer..

I am horrified and disgusted at any Israeli who intentionally kills any truly innocent Palestinian.

However, I am even more horrified and disgusted at the members of Hamas who hide amongst innocent Palestinians and place their military infrastructure in areas that are impossible to target without causing mass civilian causalities.

We good now, everyone?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

I am horrified and disgusted at any Israeli who intentionally kills any truly innocent Palestinian.

However, I am even more horrified and disgusted at the members of Hamas who hide amongst innocent Palestinians and place their military infrastructure in areas that are impossible to target without causing mass civilian causalities.

We good now, everyone?

Sorry. But no. As well as (using your logic) your "moot" criticism of Israel you completely ignored or refused to answer the question asked.

Let me post it again for you.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Do you find the deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel to be acts of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

If not. Why not. What's the difference?

And it's ok to blow the head of young children because of the Holocaust is not an acceptable answer..

[CalgaryKid12]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Sorry. But no. As well as (using your logic) your "moot" criticism of Israel you completely ignored or refused to answer the question asked.

Let me post it again for you.

That was the point my guy...

Can I not be horrified and disgusted at both? Or for you to be happy, do I need to unequally condemn Israel?

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

That was the point my guy...

Can I not be horrified and disgusted at both? Or for you to be happy, do I need to unequally condemn Israel?

Well you quantified you were even more horrified by one than the other... It comes across as disingenuous.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

That was the point my guy...

Can I not be horrified and disgusted at both? Or for you to be happy, do I need to unequally condemn Israel?

It seems really weird to complain about “yes and/but” as some sort of justification for Hamas and then turn around and purposely use the deaths of Palestinians as some punch line for your argumentative attempt at a gotchya.

[FLAME ENVY]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

It doesn't. But it makes it safer for the next 5-10 years. Chances are high that at some point in the future USA will stop supporting Israel militarily. All political things going the way they are now point to the left eventually gaining on the right and evangelical Christians losing their grip on electoral power. This means bad for Israel. The territory and the population are just too small to sustain a long war without US backing and Israel sees it too, undoubtedly. So, for now, while they still have the 5-10 years of reasonably assured US support, they will take the maximum advantage of it. I am very surprised they didn't attack the recent funerals of Hezbollah commanders. A lot of enemy in one spot. Would have been a very easy and effective strike.

My guess is that Israel will inflict as much damage as they can in the next 2-3 months on Gaza and Lebanon and then move to ceasefire and "land for peace" arrangements.

I get this is your opinion, but my opinion is you are completely wrong in your assessment of the United States abandoning Israel militarily, it will never happen. The US has a long history of supporting Israel and will continue to do so for an array of reasons, they are a key ally. Also remember how much money Israel spends on US military equipment. That could probably be reason # 1 why the US will always support Israel.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

That was the point my guy...

Can I not be horrified and disgusted at both? Or for you to be happy, do I need to unequally condemn Israel?

I am just curious as to what your views are regarding Israel's behaviour in Gaza hence the question that for whatever reason you keep refusing to answer.

Again. I ask.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Do you find the deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel to be acts of terrorism just as everyone in this thread is in agreement that the deliberate killing of Israeli civilians by Hamas is?

If not. Why not. What's the difference?

And it's ok to blow the head of young children because of the Holocaust is not an acceptable answer..

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Peace is just around the corner!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1838275525447442856

[Fuzz]

You would think it wouldn't be so hard to convince people that endless killing doesn't lead to peace and security, it just leads to endless killing. How many more decades we gotta keep repeating the same mistakes? But here we are. Kinda fascinating. Incredibly dumb. But fascinating.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You would think it wouldn't be so hard to convince people that endless killing doesn't lead to peace and security, it just leads to endless killing. How many more decades we gotta keep repeating the same mistakes? But here we are. Kinda fascinating. Incredibly dumb. But fascinating.

Well it's because we haven't solved the definition of a normally working gadget versus a booby trap, and we still don't know everyone's views on whether other humans should be nuked.

So until we find answers to those questions, nothing can be concluded.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Well it's because we haven't solved the definition of a normally working gadget versus a booby trap, and we still don't know everyone's views on whether other humans should be nuked.

So until we find answers to those questions, nothing can be concluded.

I think the vast majority of posters in this thread are a lot closer in their opinions then is represented by their posting and building a common understanding is worth doing.

No one (aside from Pointman and Skooter perhaps) believe that Israel can go in an eliminate all civilians as part of defeating Hamas.

No one believes that Israel isnt allowed to defend itself even if that defense incurs some level of incidental civilian casualties.

So instead of people just calling eachother Hamas supporters and supporters of Israeli terrorism people could have a discussion much more nuanced. That question is What level of Civilian death is acceptable in Israel defending itself from people who want to eliminate it from existence.

So do you think the acceptable amount of Civilian deaths in this conflict is zero? If not then the difference between you and other posters you criticize is a lot smaller then you are likely comfortable admitting. By people seeking to understand eachother instead of just shouting at eachother and calling eachother terrorists you have the opportunity to learn why people feel differently.