Ring Road To Nowhere

[SebC]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

They are returning to the negotiating table with the reserve so in a few years we will realise we've gotten nowhere again.

I have no problems with that, so long as the negotiations are "Here's a pile of cash. The longer you take the smaller it gets. Oh, and if you don't take it, we're cutting off access to your casino."

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Ugh, not again.

It's the best route for all, including the reserve. The other options suck balls.

Originally Posted by SebC

I have no problems with that, so long as the negotiations are "Here's a pile of cash. The longer you take the smaller it gets. Oh, and if you don't take it, we're cutting off access to your casino."

Honestly I don't get why they wouldn't take the current route along with the money they get. They have the land for a prime commercial district right around the ring road, so they can make even more revenue off of this.

They're bring extremely difficult for a sunshine type of deal. If they don't take it, hopefully the alternate route does make access to their casino (that we help in infrastructure building) becomes fairly inconvenient.

Originally Posted by ranchlandsselling

So how far away are we from having 16th ave/HW1 connecting to Glenmore/HW8?

If I was to guess I think the province won't get on that until they have the SW portion finalized. If they can strike a deal with the reserve to use the primary route then it might get started on something within this decade. If a deal gets done very soon, maybe a year or two after the SE portion is completed.

[browna]

They're going back to the table for a few reasons:

a)The pile of cash they missed out on, after some getting cold feet, stupidly worried about where the land they were getting in return (x times what they gave up), scared enough other band members to vote no is starting to look good...plus they figure they can get more of both this time around.

b)The main reason, is they want to add a fair bit more development to the exsisting casino area to take advantage of the location. From what I've heard, a hotel (or 2), as well as a big truck stop to start, somewhat like the Deerfoot Inn area at Barlow and Deerfoot.

Given the spot, and the road routing that was in the city/province's orginal plan, it will be a fairly big hub for truckers going east/west. Given that, the crappy access they have now (which should've never been given) is obviously not condusive to truckers.

The original plan has a dedicated access road to the casino area from west bound Glenmore, and I believe, would have a dedicated road directly to and from the new N/S ring road further west as well (somewhat like a bypass). Thus this bypass from the main junction will allow the truckers to come in and out, in addition to usual travellers looking to gas up, and the only hotel in the SW until you hit MacLeod (RIP Westgate).

So, they need that increased access no matter what goes in there and when, so that's why they're back at the table, likely to be asking for MORE then they were getting the last time in land and money, and probably even a better access then is in the city's original plan.

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by browna

They're going back to the table for a few reasons:

a)The pile of cash they missed out on, after some getting cold feet, stupidly worried about where the land they were getting in return (x times what they gave up), scared enough other band members to vote no is starting to look good...plus they figure they can get more of both this time around.

b)The main reason, is they want to add a fair bit more development to the exsisting casino area to take advantage of the location. From what I've heard, a hotel (or 2), as well as a big truck stop to start, somewhat like the Deerfoot Inn area at Barlow and Deerfoot.

Given the spot, and the road routing that was in the city/province's orginal plan, it will be a fairly big hub for truckers going east/west. Given that, the crappy access they have now (which should've never been given) is obviously not condusive to truckers.

The original plan has a dedicated access road to the casino area from west bound Glenmore, and I believe, would have a dedicated road directly to and from the new N/S ring road further west as well (somewhat like a bypass). Thus this bypass from the main junction will allow the truckers to come in and out, in addition to usual travellers looking to gas up, and the only hotel in the SW until you hit MacLeod (RIP Westgate).

So, they need that increased access no matter what goes in there and when, so that's why they're back at the table, likely to be asking for MORE then they were getting the last time in land and money, and probably even a better access then is in the city's original plan.

Thanks for the summary.

I really liked that area and was thinking maybe a good area to buy in (oakridge) bike/running paths are really nice, long flat'ish stretches between South Glenmore Park and Fish Creek. Doesn't seem too far from downtown.

So they're more desperate than last time but expect more?

[browna]

Originally Posted by ranchlandsselling

Thanks for the summary.

I really liked that area and was thinking maybe a good area to buy in (oakridge) bike/running paths are really nice, long flat'ish stretches between South Glenmore Park and Fish Creek. Doesn't seem too far from downtown.

So they're more desperate than last time but expect more?

It is a nice area...but the province's original reserve rr plan has e/w access roads at 90th Ave (north border of Oakridge) and then Anderson. Of course, if its the 37th route and not through the reserve, that area will be demolished, and you can see that with the houses for sale right on that extended 37th ST route (in Oakrdige and Lakeview).

Thing is, the city has coped fairly well the last couple years after taking the lights out at Glenmore and 37th, which has done ok with conesgtion issues (or pushed them along). Doesn't solve the main issues however, but the city and province should offer exactly what was offered before, which was an incredible deal for the Band and all its members.

[stampsx2]

The reason they shouldn't deal with the reserve:

1) It hasn't worked for 50 years why would you think they will reach a deal this time.

2) The reserve option costs 1.5 billion dollars with 500 million just for the land.

The cut and cover method can get started right away and costs a third of that. It doesn't affect the resevoir or lakeview residents.

Even the lakeview option costs less than the reserve deal. I don't think there's any residents along the strip that are too opposed to the city buying their house at a premium. In my opinion it's the people further in the community that would get nothing that have an issue with it.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by ranchlandsselling

So they're more desperate than last time but expect more?

They have the power so they think they could pull it off (and probably could/will). The original planned route is really the only good option for the SW ring road. If we want to build a 16 lane tunnel down 37 street we'll be paying a lot more than what we give to the reserve and total construction costs; now and future I imagine.

Also not to mention it would probably require knocking down some homes.

[stampsx2]

^^^ this is incorrect. The price of a tunnel 550 million. The reserve deal is 1.5 billion.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

^^^ this is incorrect. The price of a tunnel 550 million. The reserve deal is 1.5 billion.

There'll absolutely no chance that a cut and cover tunnel would cost anywhere close to $550 million. The construction cost for the Airport Trail tunnel is $220 million. The tunnel you are proposing would need to be significantly wider, nearly 10 times as long, significantly more complicated to build, and would still require buying out dozens of homes. I can guarantee that it would cost more than the $1.5 billion price tag of the other proposal.

There is only one option in my mind that will ever be built, and that's the original proposal to the band. I do think they can get the deal done this time. It was a good deal for everyone, especially if the land transfer can be guaranteed.

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by ranchlandsselling

So how far away are we from having 16th ave/HW1 connecting to Glenmore/HW8?

i have no officially researched this, but I would guess another two years - but that being said, they are working at extending Stoney trail from it current starting point at 17th ave Se all the way to 22x - it seems they are doing a lot of grading of the raods and building overpasses and given the remote location it is hard to tell how far along they currently are. i'd sure like to see some kind of stat on how much dirt they moved once this major project is done.

from glenmore/stoney to glenmore/HW8 will still be a fair drive - given that stoney trail and glenmore is not far from glenmore and 84th.

[Bill Bumface]

I don't really blame the Natives for balking at the last deal. When they go to try and get permits to put up commercial developments on their land, no one in the government knows where they are supposed to go and it generally ends up taking years and years of fighting to MAYBE get the permits. They don't trust the government in so far as developing any land they get, so they didn't sign. Fine by me, if it was my land I'd squeeze whoever wanted it for every penny too. Why not?

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by browna

It is a nice area...but the province's original reserve rr plan has e/w access roads at 90th Ave (north border of Oakridge) and then Anderson. Of course, if its the 37th route and not through the reserve, that area will be demolished, and you can see that with the houses for sale right on that extended 37th ST route (in Oakrdige and Lakeview).

Thing is, the city has coped fairly well the last couple years after taking the lights out at Glenmore and 37th, which has done ok with conesgtion issues (or pushed them along). Doesn't solve the main issues however, but the city and province should offer exactly what was offered before, which was an incredible deal for the Band and all its members.

Yeah - I didn't see too much listed though. Doesn't look anymore than what the usual listing amounts would be.

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

The reason they shouldn't deal with the reserve:

1) It hasn't worked for 50 years why would you think they will reach a deal this time.

2) The reserve option costs 1.5 billion dollars with 500 million just for the land.

The cut and cover method can get started right away and costs a third of that. It doesn't affect the resevoir or lakeview residents.

Even the lakeview option costs less than the reserve deal. I don't think there's any residents along the strip that are too opposed to the city buying their house at a premium. In my opinion it's the people further in the community that would get nothing that have an issue with it.

Interesting.

Originally Posted by Joborule

They have the power so they think they could pull it off (and probably could/will). The original planned route is really the only good option for the SW ring road. If we want to build a 16 lane tunnel down 37 street we'll be paying a lot more than what we give to the reserve and total construction costs; now and future I imagine.

Also not to mention it would probably require knocking down some homes.

Wow, $1.5, that's an incredible amount!!

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i have no officially researched this, but I would guess another two years - but that being said, they are working at extending Stoney trail from it current starting point at 17th ave Se all the way to 22x - it seems they are doing a lot of grading of the raods and building overpasses and given the remote location it is hard to tell how far along they currently are. i'd sure like to see some kind of stat on how much dirt they moved once this major project is done.

from glenmore/stoney to glenmore/HW8 will still be a fair drive - given that stoney trail and glenmore is not far from glenmore and 84th.

Cool - don't head that way much, west on glenmore/8 so didn't notice any dirt piling up.

Last sentance confused me. Are you saying from Glenmore/stoney east isn't far from glenmore stoney/west/84h?

[Manhattanboy]

Funny story, apparently when the deal with the Tsuu Tina collapsed a few years ago someone suggested to the Chief the possibility that the City could retaliate by cutting off access to the Grey Eagle Casino among other things and the Chief laughed and said that would be the first time in history a white man blockaded an Indian road...

[You Need a Thneed]

I should mention too, a cut and cover tunnel would still need outlets and connections to each connecting road. That would be a nightmare, and very expensive.

[ranchlandsselling]

[QUOTE]John Laurie Boulevard at Shaganappi Trail N.W. will see a series of general improvements around the intersection resulting in various lane closures throughout July and August. The $4-billion project will widen Shaganappi Trail approaches to the John Laurie Boulevard intersection and build dual left turn bays in the northbound and southbound directions.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/Drivers...TmV[/QUOTE]
I hope that was a mistake and is supposed to be millions.

[Tron_fdc]

Why not build a toll tunnel? You either sit in Glenmore traffic, or buy a pass to breeze through the tunnel. This offsets the cost of the road, and generates future income that is only going to increase as the city grows, especially in the SW.

Problem solved.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Why not build a toll tunnel? You either sit in Glenmore traffic, or buy a pass to breeze through the tunnel. This offsets the cost of the road, and generates future income that is only going to increase as the city grows, especially in the SW.

Problem solved.

Where would this tunnel run? Do you mean a tunnel in place of the ring road sort of thing?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Why not build a toll tunnel? You either sit in Glenmore traffic, or buy a pass to breeze through the tunnel. This offsets the cost of the road, and generates future income that is only going to increase as the city grows, especially in the SW.

Problem solved.

Is the toll supposed to help pay for the increased cost? I think it's safe to say that a tunneled option would cost ~$1.5 billion MORE than the original option.

If we think that the toll is just supposed to pay the extra $1.5 billion:
30,000 vehicles per day x $2 per trip = $60,000 per day.

Collecting $60,000 per day, it would take 68.5 years to raise $1.5 billion, and that doesn't include and discussion of interest paid on the original amount.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by Slava

Where would this tunnel run? Do you mean a tunnel in place of the ring road sort of thing?

Under the reserve, or the wetland, or wherever it was that the city was thinking about so we don't get continually stalled in negotiations with the
Indian band.

I'll admit I haven't looked at the economics, but there has to a be reason countries like Australia have toll roads all over the place. The municipalities bid the construction out to a company that builds the toll road, then collects the fees for (x) years after it's finished. At that point the government takes over their operation. It's been a while since I checked, but I think it's something like $5 each way per car.