Democratic Presidential Primaries 2008

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by troutman

Poll shows Obama or Clinton can beat McCain:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

A new poll out Wednesday suggests either candidate would easily beat Republican John McCain in the fall.

According to a new Quinnipiac University poll, both Democratic candidates beat McCain by a gap well outside the margin of error. Obama beats McCain by 7 points in the poll, 47 percent to 40 percent, while Hillary Clinton bests the Arizona senator by 5 points, 46 percent to 41 percent.

Not disputing the truth in this, but polls this year have seemed to be extremely wonky and often entirely wrong.

[arsenal]

If you guys want polls, stats, etc this site has it in spades:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

Also, he has run a few models pre-primary, that have been pretty much exactly how the voting turned out. I would probably trust this guys numbers more than any of the opinion polls and what not from major news sources.

[Gozer]

Now what happens with Edward's delegates?

If he "gives" them to Shrillary in exchange for VP, she's a lot closer.

[Iggy's Forehead]

Originally Posted by Azure

Because they're racist.....obviously.

You give me a sarcastic smilie, but you still have ZERO explanation of why so much of the working class white vote is 1. Hillary; 2. Anyone but Obama.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Iggy's Forehead

You give me a sarcastic smilie, but you still have ZERO explanation of why so much of the working class white vote is 1. Hillary; 2. Anyone but Obama.

All I know is that its common knowledge the Republicans are the racist ones.

[Iggy's Forehead]

Originally Posted by Gozer

All I know is that its common knowledge the Republicans are the racist ones.

Republicans are racist, Democrats aren't = Black people are criminals, white people aren't.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iggy's Forehead

You give me a sarcastic smilie, but you still have ZERO explanation of why so much of the working class white vote is 1. Hillary; 2. Anyone but Obama.

But they're racist.....duh.

Since your mind is already made up, why should I even try to change it?

Obama has MANY flaws.....and they've all been discussed throughout the last 30 pages of this thread. I'm not going there again.

So just because people don't want to vote for him....it doesn't mean they're all racist.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iggy's Forehead

Republicans are racist, Democrats aren't = Black people are criminals, white people aren't.

That doesn't make any sense.

Stereotyping political groups, or racial color is ridiculous.

I'm sure there are Republicans AND Democrats that are racist, and black along with white people that are criminals.

Doesn't make either group racist, or either group criminals.

I do love how the excuses are already coming. Obama didn't win because the US is racist.

[Iggy's Forehead]

Originally Posted by Azure

But they're racist.....duh.

Since your mind is already made up, why should I even try to change it?

Obama has MANY flaws.....and they've all been discussed throughout the last 30 pages of this thread. I'm not going there again.

So just because people don't want to vote for him....it doesn't mean they're racist.

Fine. You may be right to a point. But at the end of the day, we all know Obama and Clinton have policies that are very similiar in comparison to McCain. And when you see results in West Virginia that tell us a vast majority want Clinton, then after that McCain is the secondary vote, it makes you wonder. You've got sky blue, baby blue and dark red. If you can't have sky blue, you'd prefer dark red? Just doesn't add up to me.

[Iggy's Forehead]

Originally Posted by Azure

That doesn't make any sense.

Stereotyping political groups, or racial color is ridiculous.

I'm sure there are Republicans AND Democrats that are racist, and black along with white people that are criminals.

Doesn't make either group racist, or either group criminals.

Thank you for repeating the exact point that I'm trying to make.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Azure

But they're racist.....duh.

Since your mind is already made up, why should I even try to change it?

Obama has MANY flaws.....and they've all been discussed throughout the last 30 pages of this thread. I'm not going there again.

So just because people don't want to vote for him....it doesn't mean they're racist.

Democrats are all about identity politics. That's why democrats always talk about the woman vs. the black man.

Like Obama talking about capital gains taxes - give a sound bite everyone can get behind (a billionaire stock investor pays a lower percent of taxes than his/[her] secretary) so non-billionaires will get in line.

Ignore that higher capital gains taxes lead to decreased revenues, and declare supporting evidence as a "possibility".

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Iggy's Forehead

You've got sky blue, baby blue and dark red. If you can't have sky blue, you'd prefer dark red? Just doesn't add up to me.

Because the Left isn't running on issues, they're running on "feelings" and "hope."

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iggy's Forehead

Fine. You may be right to a point. But at the end of the day, we all know Obama and Clinton have policies that are very similiar in comparison to McCain. And when you see results in West Virginia that tell us a vast majority want Clinton, then after that McCain is the secondary vote, it makes you wonder. You've got sky blue, baby blue and dark red. If you can't have sky blue, you'd prefer dark red? Just doesn't add up to me.

I bet a lot of Obama voters would vote for McCain rather than Hillary.

I've said it enough times that I don't like any of the 3 candidates. None of them have given any real solutions of how to fix the REAL problems facing the US.

Pulling all the troops of out Iraq isn't solving the problem....or just spending more money, and refusing to adopt a REAL system of universal health care. Or eliminating the deficit by cutting back on the incredible pork that exists in the budget.

Then again, there is a reason Congress has a lower approval rating than the President. Americans want solutions to the problems, not some worthless rhetoric about how each candidate is going to fix them without actually suggesting a solution.

[Iggy's Forehead]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Because the Left isn't running on issues, they're running on "feelings" and "hope."

Yes...but Clinton and Obama are both left, no?

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Azure

Then again, there is a reason Congress has a lower approval rating than the President. Americans want solutions to the problems, not some worthless rhetoric about how each candidate is going to fix them without actually suggesting a solution.

I'm sure after hundreds of years of political theory, Obama's "Change we can believe in" is a new idea. I'm sure its not recycled rhetoric gleaned from decades of socialism.

I'm sure!

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Iggy's Forehead

Yes...but Clinton and Obama are both left, no?

Which is why I believe Democratic voters aren't making decisions based on issues. There's not a hill of beans worth of difference between Hillary's and Obama's view on issues.

[Iggy's Forehead]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Which is why I believe Democratic voters aren't making decisions based on issues. There's not a hill of beans worth of difference between Hillary's and Obama's view on issues.

Just like Azure, you're on the same side of the argument as me. Two shades of blue, yet West Virginians prefer dark red if their blue isn't available. Then you said, "That's because the left is selling hope." Which makes no sense, because if you love what Hillary's selling, how could you despise what Barack is selling?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Because the Left isn't running on issues, they're running on "feelings" and "hope."

The Right ran on "fear" and "defamation" last election and won. Focussing on actual issues is often not the way to win, sadly.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Iggy's Forehead

Just like Azure, you're on the same side of the argument as me. Two shades of blue, yet West Virginians prefer dark red if their blue isn't available. Then you said, "That's because the left is selling hope." Which makes no sense, because if you love what Hillary's selling, how could you despise what Barack is selling?

They're not voting for Hillary's politics, they're voting for Hillary.
Same goes for Obama. Therefore voters see it as Obama vs Clinton, and a vote for Clinton is really a vote against Obama, which is why they continue to claim this "desertion." I don't believe the Left voters will vote they way they claim now, at least not in the numbers they claim, the voters just know making this "McCain in 2nd" helps their candidate. Many have no idea what Obama's politics are, just that He wants everyone to be better off.


For years the Left has sold identity politics - Republicans are for rich white folk, Democrats are for gays, minorities, the poor, and so on. That's why they have to have so many social programs - to promote all these small groups. And they tie it together, you would only oppose their programs if you must oppose their groups. Now its biting them in the arse, because you have to support women or support blacks. You can't vote policy because they all have this warm-and-fuzzy belief that if the gov't cares enough all problems will be solved.

When it comes to basic stuff like "should people that can't afford their house get to keep it," I bet most of the population is awfully conservative.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The Right ran on "fear" and "defamation" last election and won. Focussing on actual issues is often not the way to win, sadly.

No argument there.