[News] Calgary, Alberta, & CSEC agree in principle to $1.223bn Event Centre + infrastructure

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by heep223

However you stand on the private/public money thing, the real tragedy is that delaying this project for so long has resulted in what will likely be the worst possible timing from a cost perspective. Dead smack in the middle of the highest inflation we've seen since the 1970s.

Almost like from a business perspective they should have delayed it a little longer then.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Exhibit A in "falling for it".


.

Province would have assisted City of Calgary on various projects either way,

City voted unanimous on this deal, Last deal which fell through was not unanimous

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

But it is a good idea.

No.

[Erick Estrada]

People are so weird when it comes to this stuff. A few years ago we found out that the federal government couldn't account for 20,000 projects and double digit billions of taxpayer money that just went up in smoke and it's barely a blip on the radar for the average Canadian. The province and the city kick in a hundreds of millions for a project that Calgarians will absolutely be able to see and use whether it be for sports, music, stampede, etc and people get all angry like that money came right out of their personal bank accounts. People need to realize that even if they don't plan on using the facilities, at least there's tangible evidence of taxpayer money spent as there's a good chance if used for something else we will never see any evidence of it being spent.

[Roughneck]

People need to realize that the issue isn’t that an arena is being built, it’s that hundreds of millions of dollars are being given for a public liability that carries private benefit. Like if they upgraded Deerfoot then put tolls on it that a private company gets to collect and at the end of that lifecycle public dollars had to go into upgrades again. It’s not like we are getting subsidized use of the arena, the public owners aren’t even getting the naming rights to their own building.

Corporate welfare is the issue. Public dollars for private benefit.

And if the last plan was any indication, we aren’t even going to get something good to look at. With a private plaza (garbage concept) and more parking instead of a better public realm significantly take away from the public revitalization benefits.

[Royle9]

I see we've hit the "rather have another library" phase, or 5 apparently... less than 24H later.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

People are so weird when it comes to this stuff. A few years ago we found out that the federal government couldn't account for 20,000 projects and double digit billions of taxpayer money that just went up in smoke and it's barely a blip on the radar for the average Canadian. The province and the city kick in a hundreds of millions for a project that Calgarians will absolutely be able to see and use whether it be for sports, music, stampede, etc and people get all angry like that money came right out of their personal bank accounts. People need to realize that even if they don't plan on using the facilities, at least there's tangible evidence of taxpayer money spent as there's a good chance if used for something else we will never see any evidence of it being spent.

You think it's weird that people are not happy about corporate wellfare for billionaires? While food inflation is at an all time high? Try harder and I'm sure you'll understand. I'm not asking you to agree. But maybe try harder to understand. It really isn't a big mystery

[Ozy_Flame]

Personally I think those funds could have gone to serve Albertans in far more important areas of the province, including healthcare resources, lab services, social assistance programs, environmental stewardship, infrastructure upgrades and service accessibility, development of emerging industries, arts and culture programs that need more funding, and other areas of need.

That said, the announcement has been made, and only time will tell if the investment was worth it to Albertans as whole.

I'm of the opinion that if provincial dollars goes towards something, it has to benefit the majority of Albertans. I just don't see that being the case this particular project.

We always harp on Rogers Place in Edmonton, but at least Calgarians and the rest of Albertans didn't have to pay for it. It was done between the City and Katz Group, and whether you agree with it or not, both organizations have Edmonton-first skin in the game. If you didn't live there, you don't have to worry about it.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by Bonded

The private investment is 40 million dollars upfront. The risk is minimal for CSEC.

That’s how much the coyotes are paying to remediate some dirt on their site. Before paying $2 billion privately.

If this was a coyotes deal I’d never hear the end of it. The city and province were straight up swindled.

[Lubicon]

I'm not opposed to this deal, there was always going to be taxpayer money involved and Calgary needs a new rink. However as I mentioned yesterday prior to the announcement the Alberta taxpayer will be paying roughly double whatever the contribution is to the arena project. And it didn't take long after the announcement to see it begin. Edmonton's mayor was asked about the deal and while congratulating the City of Calgary for getting a new arena he flat out said he would be making a call to the Province to ask for an equivalent amount of infrastructure money ($300 million) since Edmonton was flat out turned down for funding when Rogers was built. So Calgary's new rink will really cost Alberta taxpayers about $600 million in new spending.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Corporate welfare is the issue. Public dollars for private benefit.

I sure hope folks get as worked up about the tax breaks and incentives the city gives to corporations and businesses too. Same problem, just in different cloth.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

You think it's weird that people are not happy about corporate wellfare for billionaires? While food inflation is at an all time high? Try harder and I'm sure you'll understand. I'm not asking you to agree. But maybe try harder to understand. It really isn't a big mystery

The city and province should have got a stake in the Flames in exchange for this deal. Privatize the profits and socialize the losses baby.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

I'm not opposed to this deal, there was always going to be taxpayer money involved and Calgary needs a new rink. However as I mentioned yesterday prior to the announcement the Alberta taxpayer will be paying roughly double whatever the contribution is to the arena project. And it didn't take long after the announcement to see it begin. Edmonton's mayor was asked about the deal and while congratulating the City of Calgary for getting a new arena he flat out said he would be making a call to the Province to ask for an equivalent amount of infrastructure money ($300 million) since Edmonton was flat out turned down for funding when Rogers was built. So Calgary's new rink will really cost Alberta taxpayers about $600 million in new spending.

That was addressed in the press conference. There was already an imbalance in the funds awarded to the two cities for infrastructure programs, with Edmonton having a $300 million benefit advantage over Calgary. This was evening that playing field. Edmonton can ask, but they are already receiving that money.

[Scroopy Noopers]

I’m excited about the idea. But there no doubt that it’s a tough investment to swallow. I’d have liked the City to have built and owned the building themselves ideally.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Personally I think those funds could have gone to serve Albertans in far more important areas of the province, including healthcare resources, lab services, social assistance programs, environmental stewardship, infrastructure upgrades and service accessibility, development of emerging industries, arts and culture programs that need more funding, and other areas of need.

That said, the announcement has been made, and only time will tell if the investment was worth it to Albertans as whole.

I'm of the opinion that if provincial dollars goes towards something, it has to benefit the majority of Albertans. I just don't see that being the case this particular project.

We always harp on Rogers Place in Edmonton, but at least Calgarians and the rest of Albertans didn't have to pay for it. It was done between the City and Katz Group, and whether you agree with it or not, both organizations have Edmonton-first skin in the game. If you didn't live there, you don't have to worry about it.

I think that is absolutely fair. However on the selfish side, living in Calgary, I am happy "I" get the benefit of the provincial money vs Edmonton.

The province also had an unexpected 10 BILLION surplus due to oil prices in 2022. The provincial contribution is 3% of that surplus

When we have an unexpected surplus I am more inclined to be "ok" with spending on some nice things - Similar to getting a bonus at work

(Ignoring the fact we run deficits most years and can/should use the funds to pay that down since no one ever likes paying for debt vs spending more)

Should Edmonton get $300 million for something as well? Probably. Should other cities get some allocation of "fun" funds? Probably.

Now the city portion of taxes I think is a different question. This is an investment in the city that will make the city better, but at a large cost and subsidizing a private entity.

The reality is that if you want to attract or keep a sports team you will be subsidizing a private enterprise by building abn arena. Whether we like it or not, that is the state of North America. The Flames were NEVER building their own arena no matter how much people want them too.

It's similar to giving tax breaks, free leases, etc to get corporation headquarters to move to a city. It is corporate welfare. But you are competing with other cities, who are willing to do the same thing.

Sports teams and Companies that create jobs are in high demand. When you are in high demand you have the leverage.

Side Question - Does anyone know approx how much tax revenue does the city and province recoup from the project on business and personal income tax? This money is all being used to hire companies or individuals to do the work, who in turn pay their employees, etc. How much of the Provincial and City spending on these expenses is generally returned in income type taxes (Goes for any city/provincial project)

[csnarpy]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I’m excited about the idea. But there no doubt that it’s a tough investment to swallow. I’d have liked the City to have built and owned the building themselves ideally.

Well they will own the building and I’m pretty sure they will have some say in the design.

[edslunch]

The Mayor said on the radio this morning that revenue sharing and overrun responsibilities are still being negotiated. These are kind of big deals. It sure feels like this announcement was rushed so the UCP can claim victory. Smith is already calling it an election issue.

[Jason14h]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...tadium-funding

Titans getting a new stadium - Details on funding split

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by edslunch

The Mayor said on the radio this morning that revenue sharing and overrun responsibilities are still being negotiated. These are kind of big deals. It sure feels like this announcement was rushed so the UCP can claim victory. Smith is already calling it an election issue.

Oh, those are two very important points that can sway this from terrible to less terrible or blow it up altogether. I can't believe UCP went with Smith, she is terrible.

[Fuzz]

INVESTMENTS BY PARTY

Below is the financial framework and cost estimates, as released by the City of Calgary:

• Event centre - $800 million;
• Attached parking - $235.4 million;
• Enclosed plaza - $9.5 million;
• On-site public realm - $28.7 million;
• Community rink - $52.8 million;
• Transportation improvements, infrastructure and other district benefits - $238.4 million; and
• Other costs - $58.5 million.

Total: $1,223.3 million

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-a...rict-1.6370698


Not to nitpick of details, but how does a parkade cost $235.4 million, and what is the public benefit of that? This fancy repurposable parkade with 503 spots cost $80 million:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...cmlc-1.6041589


Is this new one encased in gold?