Ukraine Presidential Crackdown Violence. Russia Invades Ukraine - Page 45 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

CaptainCrunch · 03-19-2014, 04:56 PM

Except it gives then exclusive use of warm water ports for their navy.

That isn't in the middle of someone elses country.

nik- · 03-19-2014, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Except it gives then exclusive use of warm water ports for their navy.

That isn't in the middle of someone elses country.

They have significant coast on the same Black Sea and they've had 20 years to address this issue.

PIMking · 03-19-2014, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasa

Are you a cartoon from the 1950's? Everything you say is "communist this" and "communist that." This is beyond the Pinko Commie vs Capitalism ideology. You seriously sound like Little Timmy, with his green and white horizontal striped shirt, lil' slugger ball cap and soft malleable propaganda-filled brain.

I'm saying that Putin is acting like his soviet predecessors with this crap and he has said that he wants to recreate the Soviet Union. May as well start calling a spade a spade.

I could just call him a dbag if you want

CaptainCrunch · 03-19-2014, 04:59 PM

Granted, but Svastopol (sp) is a major naval base and the Russians have viewed it as theirs for a while.

PIMking · 03-19-2014, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasa

The "us vs. them" or "good vs. evil" mindset is the same, but this isn't Great #1 Capitalism Good Team vs. Liberal Soviet Communist Evil Jerks.

There are many valid reasons to be against what's going on, I won't argue that. It's just the whole "he's a stupid communist!" angle makes the situation feel like a weird satire.

I won't be surprised if I find out PIMking is found running around the streets yelling "GO WOLVERINES! THE REDS ARE COMING!"

Not running, mall walking because my neck still hurts.

nik- · 03-19-2014, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Granted, but Svastopol (sp) is a major naval base and the Russians have viewed it as theirs for a while.

Well granted, it is their naval base, but leased from another country. All I'm saying is the warm water naval base reasoning doesn't fly. I know they've spouted it for a while, but it's invalid.

CaptainCrunch · 03-19-2014, 05:02 PM

They don't want it leased from another country, and from a naval strategy standpoint the reasoning is very valid.

nik- · 03-19-2014, 05:03 PM

Right, so build your own, on your own ample coastline on the Black Sea.

worth · 03-19-2014, 05:05 PM

I do not blame Putin one bit for what he is doing. If I were Russian, I'm 100% sure I would be supporting his advances at the moment. NATO has pushed too far into Russian "territory". Putin has taken notice of NATO's weakness after 13 years fighting in Afghanistan, it is the perfect time to move. NATO countries are war weary and desire no fight. Press your advance and get as much as you can out of this. Couple that with a perceived weak military leader in Obama and it's a no brainer for the Russians. I'm surprised more people don't recognize the Russian side of this.

PIMking · 03-19-2014, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by worth

I do not blame Putin one bit for what he is doing. If I were Russian, I'm 100% sure I would be supporting his advances at the moment. NATO has pushed too far into Russian "territory". Putin has taken notice of NATO's weakness after 13 years fighting in Afghanistan, it is the perfect time to move. NATO countries are war weary and desire no fight. Press your advance and get as much as you can out of this. Couple that with a perceived weak military leader in Obama and it's a no brainer for the Russians. I'm surprised more people don't recognize the Russian side of this.

So you're supporting a guy illegally taking land from another country?

nik- · 03-19-2014, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by worth

I do not blame Putin one bit for what he is doing. If I were Russian, I'm 100% sure I would be supporting his advances at the moment. NATO has pushed too far into Russian "territory". Putin has taken notice of NATO's weakness after 13 years fighting in Afghanistan, it is the perfect time to move. NATO countries are war weary and desire no fight. Press your advance and get as much as you can out of this. Couple that with a perceived weak military leader in Obama and it's a no brainer for the Russians. I'm surprised more people don't recognize the Russian side of this.

A lot of people recognize the reasoning, but that doesn't justify the reasoning.

worth · 03-19-2014, 05:12 PM

We're on the opposite end of what Russia has been watching unfold before its eyes for the past 24 years.

CaptainCrunch · 03-19-2014, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nik-

Right, so build your own, on your own ample coastline on the Black Sea.

They do have Russian coastline naval bases, but seizing the ones in Crimea prevent an possible hostile naval presence in the Black Sea.

Russia has a main export base in Novorossiysk, But the main naval base is in Crimea, and that's a Russian base in what's considered a foreign country that is vulnerable.

nik- · 03-19-2014, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

They do have Russian coastline naval bases, but seizing the ones in Crimea prevent an possible hostile naval presence in the Black Sea.

Russia has a main export base in Novorossiysk, But the main naval base is in Crimea, and that's a Russian base in what's considered a foreign country that is vulnerable.

Turkey is already in the Black Sea though. I'm not saying those reasons aren't there, I'm saying they could have been remedied, and they've had a long time to do so. It's apparent they wanted that toehold in Ukraine, and not simply the warm water naval base that they use to justify it.

nik- · 03-19-2014, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by worth

We're on the opposite end of what Russia has been watching unfold before its eyes for the past 24 years.

Except for that pesky legality part. We didn't just segment portions of countries illegally to expand NATO.

I will agree that NATO expansion was provocative and the need was debatable.

Doodlebug · 03-19-2014, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nik-

Right, so build your own, on your own ample coastline on the Black Sea.

As evidenced by Guantanamo Bay, major powers do not give up bases easily. The home port of the Black Sea fleet is far more important to them from a strategic sense then Gitmo is currently to the US.

PIMking · 03-19-2014, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doodlebug

As evidenced by Guantanamo Bay, major powers do not give up bases easily. The home port of the Black Sea fleet is far more important to them from a strategic sense then Gitmo is currently to the US.

Yet we didnt invade Cuba again for it.

nik- · 03-19-2014, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doodlebug

As evidenced by Guantanamo Bay, major powers do not give up bases easily. The home port of the Black Sea fleet is far more important to them from a strategic sense then Gitmo is currently to the US.

I don't even really think this goes against what I'm saying. Of course no one would want to give up what they already have. All I'm saying is that the "warm water base" justification is a load of ####, that's all.

Doodlebug · 03-19-2014, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIMking

Yet we didnt invade Cuba again for it.

True the bay of pigs didn't quite pan out.

PIMking · 03-19-2014, 05:37 PM