2011/12 Toronto Blue Jays Off-Season

[JayP]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

San Francisco comes to mind. Was very average after the Bonds era then added players like Zito (I know a bust), Rowand, Renteria, DeRosa, Sanchez, Molina, Huff... all this while the young core of Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, Sandoval, Schierholtz, Posey etc.. caught up.

And none of those players contributed anything to their success.

Pretty much the worst example you could come up with.

[Pagal4321]

Isn't the method the Jays are employing (having a very good farm team and not reaching for the expensive free agents) the same method the Rays used many years back that led them to going deep in the playoffs for a few years??

And girl, in no way, shapre or form does KC have Royals have the best farm system. They have high draft picks, yes, but not many of them are projected as top prospects.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Just in 2012 Baltimore will finish ahead of the Jays, that's my bold and angry prediction.

I'd like to hear why. 12 wins is a lot to make up when Baltimore did absolutely nothing of value this off-season.

I just wanted a 1-2 year free agent to fill in the rotation to maintain the team at 81 wins not a gamebreaker, we not contending in 2012 and 2013 anyways. Just a transition gap, not for the future. Like what San Francisco did in 2009 and 2010 as I mentioned above.

Why do you insist we need to maintain at 81 wins. How are we any worse than last season? You keep saying that "at this time last year.." like it means anything. The comparison is last season to this year's projected season - not last year's projected season to this year's projected season. Cecil was terrible in 2011 - if he's terrible again in 2012 it's not a drop-off. It doesn't matter how Cecil was in 2010 and what we expected him to do last season - it only matters how he actually performed last year.

How will Rasmus be any worse than Davis/Patterson?

How will Thames/Snider be any worse than half a year of Patterson and half a year of Thames?

How will Lawrie be any worse than EE/McDonald and 2 months of Lawrie?

How will Santos/Oliver/Cordero be worse than Rauch/Francisco/Dotel for the Jays and last season? I don't care if Rauch/Francisco/Dotel last off-season were projected to be better than Santos/Oliver/Cordero this off-season. I care if Rauch/Francisco/Dotel last SEASON are better than the projections for Santos/Oliver/Cordero NOW.

If you're going by the playing the kids take two steps back to go 5 steps forward then 2012 will be the Blue Jays worse year as they try and figure things out.

This isn't the NHL. Kids don't slowly work their way up to be good players at the pro level. It might take a year or so, but the guys coming up to the bigs are typically ready to contribute. You don't learn on the job.

I don't believe Fielder takes up money, it's Rogers, they can afford the extra 20 million per season.

It's not Rogers - it's the Blue Jays. Why doesn't Rogers trade away Bautista's $65 million contract for prospects and expand their mobile network? It'd be the exact same thing you propose.

Why'd we trade away Vernon Wells either - we can afford that extra $20 million per season.

Don't be so sure about Kelly Johnson, two teams have given up on him for a reason.
He couldn't even hit well in ballpark friendly Arizona. I have a sneaky feeling Hill will have a good year in 2012.

The Rogers Centre is a hitter friendly park. And explain why Hill would be better when he's the exact same case as Johnson (except his peak wasn't nearly as good). Put up bad numbers in a hitter's park, team gave up on him. But Johnson will suck and Hill will be awesome. Sounds mighty similar to how the Jays young pitching staff will kill them, but it's a benefit for Baltimore to have one.

And to finish off, the Royals have the best farm system in the majors and I'm not sure they're going anywhere either

Why not? It's a slow process, but they're on the right track. Just because they have sucked lately doesn't mean they'll suck in the future.

[VERVE]

Jose Bautista was tested quite often during the past few years.

"...the Toronto Blue Jays slugger was asked by compatriot and retired pitcher Pedro Martinez how many times he has been tested under Major League Baseball's drug prevention and treatment program.
Bautista replied that he had been tested three times in 2009, nine times during his breakout, 54 home run 2010 season and seven times during the 2011 campaign..."

I guess he is clean and steriod free. The news story does not state what kind of testing was involved. I am not sure but there might be other synthetic drugs and or other hormones that are still undetectable. For now, the debate is over, there should not be a cloud of suspicion surrounding Bautista's success at the plate.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/201...ta_peds_blair/

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Pagal4321

Isn't the method the Jays are employing (having a very good farm team and not reaching for the expensive free agents) the same method the Rays used many years back that led them to going deep in the playoffs for a few years??

And girl, in no way, shapre or form does KC have Royals have the best farm system. They have high draft picks, yes, but not many of them are projected as top prospects.

I'm just reading baseball prospectus

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=12470

Summary: With one winning season in the last 16 years, Royals fans finally have reason for optimism. This is not just the best minor-league system in baseball, it's the best by a wide margin. The more I wrote about these prospects, the more trouble I had figuring out any way for things to go wrong. Another winning record could occur as early as 2012, but more importantly, the team should return to annual playoff contention shortly thereafter.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JayP

And none of those players contributed anything to their success.

Pretty much the worst example you could come up with.

Wasn't Renteria the WS MVP?

Seems like he has to have at least something to do with their success.

[flames_1987]

It was a truly horrible and could not have picked a worse example then the players that were mentioned. Renterria in his only full season with the Giants making 10 million dollars, had an OBP of .307 with over 400 AB"s. He had nothing but an average postseason the year the Giants won the World Series.Some of the other names mentioned had truly horrible seasons.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I'm just reading baseball prospectus

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=12470

If you're going to use that as your reference point to call the Royals for having the best farm system, then how can you disagree when the same author says the team should return to post season appearances very soon, and you say your not sure if they're going anywhere either?

Your points have been challenged by JP, myself and others many times on here with statistics after statistics, while you fail to use any in your arguments or respond to ones that clearly prove some of your theories wrong.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

If you're going to use that as your reference point to call the Royals for having the best farm system, then how can you disagree when the same author says the team should return to post season appearances very soon, and you say your not sure if they're going anywhere either?

Your points have been challenged by JP, myself and others many times on here with statistics after statistics, while you fail to use any in your arguments or respond to ones that clearly prove some of your theories wrong.

I can agree that they have the best farm system and disagree that it will go anywhere. Farm systems are important but they're are not the be all end all. I don't think a team can win based on a farm system alone.

Your statistics may prove me wrong in a 3-5 years. We'll keep an eye on the Jays and Royals and see how they do compared to the Rangers and Tigers. That could be a running case study here.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I can agree that they have the best farm system and disagree that it will go anywhere. Farm systems are important but they're are not the be all end all. I don't think a team can win based on a farm system alone.

Your statistics may prove me wrong in a 3-5 years. We'll keep an eye on the Jays and Royals and see how they do compared to the Rangers and Tigers. That could be a running case study here.

That is a horrible example! The Rangers are a perfect example of what the Jays should keep doing and how it led to success!!!! They've made the world series because of drafting, young talent while having the 28th payroll in baseball


In 2008, the Rangers ranked 21st in payroll and 25th in attendance. In 2009, the team moved ahead into 19th in payroll and 18th in attendance. Then, in 2010, the team went all the way to the World Series on a payroll that ranked 28th in baseball, while drawing the 14th most amount of fans to its games. In 2011, the team returned to the World Series on a payroll that last year ranked 13th in the league, while drawing the 10th most amount of fans to its games.

[GirlySports]

ok just Jays and Tigers than, is that fair.
Jays and Angels?

What AL team has a model you totally disagree with?

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

ok just Jays and Tigers than, is that fair.
Jays and Angels?

What AL team has a model you totally disagree with?

Well the model I would agree with is the one that has taken the Rangers to the World Series the last two years, has made the Devil Ray contenders for the last 4 seasons. Baseball is not an even playing field, to be successful over a long period of time, the Jays need to draft well, have controlled contracts and be patient. If AA had the flexibility of the Angels or Yankees I bet there's things he'd love to do.

The Baltimore Orioles have a model I clearly disagree with. They were just as bad as the Jays were 3 years ago, and while the Jays have done nothing but get better in almost every aspect, the Orioles continue to be a joke of a franchise and signing below average-average free agents that you have called on the Jays to do to "bridge the gap".

Playing in the toughest division in baseball, where they stand right now and stood 3-4 years ago, with the amount of payroll they have, the best examples would be the Tampa Bay and Baltimore.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

It was a truly horrible and could not have picked a worse example then the players that were mentioned. Renterria in his only full season with the Giants making 10 million dollars, had an OBP of .307 with over 400 AB"s. He had nothing but an average postseason the year the Giants won the World Series.Some of the other names mentioned had truly horrible seasons.

Yeah, you can't base Renteria off 5 games in the world series where he hit well. He was a below average shortstop for the Giants. He had a .781 OPS that postseason which is good for a shortstop, but nothing to go crazy over.

[Cheese]

State of the Franchise going on in Toronto right now...


Tweets from Barry Davis
https://twitter.com/#!/SNBarryDavis

Beeston says they won't budge on team policy of not giving out deals longer than 5 yrs. . Had Prince wanted 5 they may have bid

Farrell gives himself a C when asked to grade his 1st season. Says rotation needs more quality innings this year. #bluejays

Beeston asked where they want to be in 5yrs. "We better be a post season time by then. Could start this year, could start next.

As far as lack of trades AA says they would have to sacrifice too many core guys and wouldn't be worth it. Got cheers for answer. #bluejays

Beeston says the #bluejays are "examining the posibilty of one day playing on grass. Can't promise it will happen but is being considered

AA says to get to elite status you need elite players. All starts in minors. Says Marcum for Lawrie trade is example. #bluejays

Farrell confirms that Thames and Snider will battle for LF job in camp. #bluejays

AA admits they don't have a true cleanup hitter but they have power to bottom. Also defends kelly Johnson and predicts big year.

AA says there were a couple of FAs they offered more $ and yrs than what that player signed for elsewhere so its not always abt money

[KelVarnsen]

Originally Posted by Cheese

State of the Franchise going on in Toronto right now...


Tweets from Barry Davis
https://twitter.com/#!/SNBarryDavis

Beeston says the #bluejays are "examining the posibilty of one day playing on grass. Can't promise it will happen but is being considered

That would interesting.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Tweets from Barry Davis
https://twitter.com/#!/SNBarryDavis

AA admits they don't have a true cleanup hitter but they have power to bottom.

I'd agree with that. I think they certainly can put the runs up, priority #1 for sure from here moving forward is the pitching staff. If they can hold their own this team will compete for a wild card soon.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by Pagal4321

Isn't the method the Jays are employing (having a very good farm team and not reaching for the expensive free agents) the same method the Rays used many years back that led them to going deep in the playoffs for a few years??

And girl, in no way, shapre or form does KC have Royals have the best farm system. They have high draft picks, yes, but not many of them are projected as top prospects.

Keith Law had them at #1 before last season

they are lower now because the jewel of their system in Hosmer graduated

but they had 5 guys in the top 41, and 3 in the top 45 at midseason (where Hosmer was left off because he was in MLB)

Wil Myers
Mike Montgomery
Jake Odorizzi
Bubba Starling

those are all high level prospects

Law's new list comes out next week

Sickels has them as 6th this season http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/...ings-prospects

[d_phaneuf]

if anyone does like to follow prospects and check lists, I found a great excel sheet someone put together and is updating as more lists become available

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...DM3F0eUE#gid=0
most places love the jays, AA has done some great work improving the farm while not hurting the big club

[flames_1987]

AA is extremely honest and and I'll take his attitude over Riccardi's any day of the week.

Interesting re: Beltran and the Jays

It's clear that AA is still very active and will continue to be in re: to a trade for SP or another bat. The market can change so quickly during the season.

I'm so sick of fans over reacting to the Jays this offseason because they were like 99% of the league and didn't sign Prince Fielder. The whole notion of the Jays not controlling expectations is mind boggling. AA has a strict policy and it makes more then enough sense why the team refuses to comment on specific players or trades.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

AA is extremely honest and and I'll take his attitude over Riccardi's any day of the week.

Interesting re: Beltran and the Jays

It's clear that AA is still very active and will continue to be in re: to a trade for SP or another bat. The market can change so quickly during the season.

I'm so sick of fans over reacting to the Jays this offseason because they were like 99% of the league and didn't sign Prince Fielder. The whole notion of the Jays not controlling expectations is mind boggling. AA has a strict policy and it makes more then enough sense why the team refuses to comment on specific players or trades.

Actually it was 97% of the league didn't sign Fielder