Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Elkyiv]

Originally Posted by opendoor

What makes you think they didn't share the ideology, at least any less than any German who joined the SS? Why else would these soldiers agree to be absorbed into the SS and be sent to fight to defend Germany's interests? By and large, they weren't conscripted; they were volunteers who were attracted by the idea of joining up with the Nazis.

The creation of foreign SS units had been carried out previously in the name of fighting against communism; with French, Flemish, Walloon, Dutch, Latvian, Estonian, Croatian and Belarusian units, among others, had been created. The creation of a Ukrainian SS division was perceived by many in Ukraine as a step towards the attainment of Ukrainian independence and attracted many volunteers.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I'm not a historian and I always wonder.... Is a 14 year old, teenager whatever, really a nazi? Is he really responsible for the side he's fighting for or just getting drafted into and brainwashed? As has been mentioned, they were fighting for independence under Nazi funding.

I thought the Unit was volunteer.

I didn't think they were accepting 14 yr old volunteers.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Elkyiv

The creation of foreign SS units had been carried out previously in the name of fighting against communism; with French, Flemish, Walloon, Dutch, Latvian, Estonian, Croatian and Belarusian units, among others, had been created. The creation of a Ukrainian SS division was perceived by many in Ukraine as a step towards the attainment of Ukrainian independence and attracted many volunteers.

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Boy, that bolded is doing a lot of heavy lifting to try and make that point

.....

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I thought the Unit was volunteer.

I didn't think they were accepting 14 yr old volunteers.

What is voluntary when on your eastern border you have Stalin, and on the west Hitler rolling through tanks?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I thought the Unit was volunteer.

I didn't think they were accepting 14 yr old volunteers.

He was at least 16 at the time, according to the article I linked earlier. Could have been 17.

The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) organized its cells in the gymnasium and embraced many young people.

I just turned 16, and the next two years were the happiest years of my life. I had no idea that what I experienced in those two years would fill me with love for my native city in such a way that it would be enough for me for the rest of my life. I didn't know then that dreams about those two years, about the company of charming girls, about carelessly cheerful friends, about fragrant evenings in the luxurious castle park and walks around the city would help me get through the anxious times of the following years. That the memories of the Berezhansk Gymnasium in the old town hall, with its professors and with its increasingly cheerful and noisy students, will support my heart and soul in a foreign land in the coming decades.

The forty-third year has come. The German armies "planned" retreated to the west. The thought of turning those beasts into human form with a red star on the forehead became real. Time and events said that it was my generation's turn to follow in the footsteps of its predecessors. And it went for the sake of the idea of ​​Cathedral Ukraine. Our roads were different - because that was the fate of our stateless people. At the call of the OUN, many joined the ranks of the UPA. Others, at the call of the Ukrainian Central Committee, went as volunteers to the "Galichyna" division. In two weeks, eighty thousand volunteers volunteered to join the division, including many students of the Berezhan Gymnasium. None of us asked what our reward would be, what our provision would be, or even what our tomorrow would be. We felt our duty to our native land - and left!

https://web.archive.org/web/20230925...g-post_21.html

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

LOL. Maybe sit this one out, Leslyn.

But, but.... both sides.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I can actually easily understand the bulk of the MPs in attendance not turning their brain on and doing the math on the "waitjustaminnithere... he was fighting for Ukraine in WWII, that must mean he was fighting Stalin, so he must have been with the Germans - this guy's almost certainly a Nazi!" in the moment. They have no reason to expect something this insane would happen - half of them are probably barely even paying attention to what's being said during what is basically a ceremonial process with no real bearing on anything (especially since it's just the introductory portion of the ceremony). Everyone claps, you clap; that's basically your whole job here, there's no reason to expect someone to cleverly entrap them into applauding a Nazi soldier.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure most of those MPs clapping don't even have a clue on who this guy is, other than he's a war vet, so they just auto-clap and do the usual "thanks for your service" liner.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Elkyiv

The creation of foreign SS units had been carried out previously in the name of fighting against communism; with French, Flemish, Walloon, Dutch, Latvian, Estonian, Croatian and Belarusian units, among others, had been created. The creation of a Ukrainian SS division was perceived by many in Ukraine as a step towards the attainment of Ukrainian independence and attracted many volunteers.

So joining the SS to go fight partisans in Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia was going to lead to Ukrainian independence? At least if he was a UPA member, you could argue that he was fighting in Ukraine proper (even if they too committed atrocities), but as part of the Waffen SS? That's just post-hoc whitewashing to say they were fighting for independence.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

What is voluntary when on your eastern border you have Stalin, and on the west Hitler rolling through tanks?

Only 13K Ukrainians (out of a population of ~40 million) joined the SS, so I don't think you can argue that these people had no choice.

[Elkyiv]

Originally Posted by opendoor

So joining the SS to go fight partisans in Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia was going to lead to Ukrainian independence?

Yes, the genesis of the division was just that.

[GirlySports]

Still, even involuntary a 16 year old enlists because his siblings and neighbors enlisted. Does that make him a scarred nazi for life that can longer do good and that nobody can be seen shaking hands with? I don't know where that line is.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Still, even involuntary a 16 year old enlists because his siblings and neighbors enlisted. Does that make him a scarred nazi for life that can longer do good and that nobody can be seen shaking hands with? I don't know where that line is.

You don’t know where the line is?? The line is voluntarily fighting with the Nazis.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Wormius

You don’t know where the line is?? The line is voluntarily fighting with the Nazis.

80 years ago as a kid.... against commies

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Still, even involuntary a 16 year old enlists because his siblings and neighbors enlisted. Does that make him a scarred nazi for life that can longer do good and that nobody can be seen shaking hands with? I don't know where that line is.

If he's 98 now, he would have been 18 when the division was formed in 1943. Still a kid in some respects, but no one forced him to join the SS to go fight in central Europe and end up in a POW camp in Italy. Millions upon millions of fighting-age Ukrainians chose not to do that.

And if you fought for the Nazis, no you shouldn't be venerated as some kind of hero for doing so in the Canadian Parliament.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by opendoor

If he's 98 now, he would have been 18 when the division was formed in 1943. Still a kid in some respects, but no one forced him to join the SS to go fight in central Europe and end up in a POW camp in Italy. Millions upon millions of fighting-age Ukrainians chose not to do that.

And if you fought for the Nazis, no you shouldn't be venerated as some kind of hero for doing so in the Canadian Parliament.

Absolutely, that was dumb.

[Yoho]

He gone!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1706730077227303254

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Yoho

He gone!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1706730077227303254

Really no other choice.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Yoho

He gone!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1706730077227303254

Ok. Now you do this.

[Mathgod]

He made an inexcusable mistake and had to go. Hopefully his resignation helps to limit the reputational damage this incident has caused Canada and Ukraine.

Originally Posted by rubecube

This country's history includes residential schools, eugenics, internment camps, and genocide. Yeah, I think you're being just a tad overdramatic.

Oh, I see. Providing rocket fuel to the Russian propaganda machine is no biggie because... residential schools.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

He made an inexcusable mistake and had to go. Hopefully his resignation helps to limit the reputational damage this incident has caused Canada and Ukraine.



Oh, I see. Providing rocket fuel to the Russian propaganda machine is no biggie because... residential schools.

No one… literally no one, said that.