The New American Politics thread

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

EVERYONE voted for that war, based on bad information. Plus, Hillary was the senator from New York, you know, that place where the terror attacks happened? She had no choice but to vote for a plan that would go after the people who orchestrated the attacks. In retrospect, it was a mistake, but it's because the executive branch LIED like crazy to make it happen.

Chiming in just on this one point because, in fairness, not everyone voted for the Iraq war.

Obama didn't, and it's one of the things that made him a great presidential candidate. He made the right call even when it was a difficult, unpopular call, about a matter of mass life or death.

To me, voting for the Iraq war is representative of terrible judgment. It was inexcusable really. As much as the Bush administration sold a lie, it should have been plain as day to anyone paying attention that it was a lie (and not in hindsight, it should have been readily apparent at the time). That she couldn't see it is extremely troubling.

For me, that vote is the biggest black mark on her record, and an almost singularly disqualifying one.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

He doesn't need the credit anymore. Nothing left to win.

It's legacy vs future.

Hes sharing a piece of his legacy to help get what 8 years ago was a hated rival elected. I think it really shows how important the Dems see this election in shaping the future. No underestimating of trump here.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Buster

Oh, the middle east would have been a disaster without her. But she voted for war in Iraq. So my statement could stand based on that alone. But then we have Libya. She supported the Muslim Brotherhood in egypt to setup a hardline Islamic government. Her actions in Iraq in recent years probably contributed to the rise of ISIS at least in part. In general, she is a hawk.

So yes, the middle east got worse under her watch.

What sodding planet are you on that the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was anyone's fault but dumb nuts George and the dark lord Chaney?
It was purely a neo con Republican war, everything after those two morons and their idiot governor of Iraq (you know the one that fired the Iraqi Army thus setting loose three million well armed and trained Sunni's) screwed the pooch.
Everything after that for good or bad is still just the inevitable consequence of their actions, no one else's.

[ResAlien]

Bernie tried the Scanners head explode trick there.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Chiming in just on this one point because, in fairness, not everyone voted for the Iraq war.

Obama didn't, and it's one of the things that made him a great presidential candidate. He made the right call even when it was a difficult, unpopular call, about a matter of mass life or death.

To me, voting for the Iraq war is representative of terrible judgment. It was inexcusable really. As much as the Bush administration sold a lie, it should have been plain as day to anyone paying attention that it was a lie (and not in hindsight, it should have been readily apparent at the time). That she couldn't see it is extremely troubling.

For me, that vote is the biggest black mark on her record, and an almost singularly disqualifying one.

I say again: Senator from New York. She had no choice but to vote for it. I don't know why people don't see she was in an impossible situation.

And nobody knew it was a bad idea until well after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20, so it's pretty easy to call her out for her decision while ignoring all of the circumstances at the time.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Chiming in just on this one point because, in fairness, not everyone voted for the Iraq war.

Obama didn't, and it's one of the things that made him a great presidential candidate. He made the right call even when it was a difficult, unpopular call, about a matter of mass life or death.

To me, voting for the Iraq war is representative of terrible judgment. It was inexcusable really. As much as the Bush administration sold a lie, it should have been plain as day to anyone paying attention that it was a lie (and not in hindsight, it should have been readily apparent at the time).

This part I agree with.

That she couldn't see it is extremely troubling.

For me, that vote is the biggest black mark on her record, and an almost singularly disqualifying one.

This to me is over the top.

Giving in to emotions and popular expectations happens to pretty much everyone at one point or another. A big black mark for sure, but if you're in politics for any length of time you're pretty much guaranteed to get a few like this one on your track record.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Buster

It's weird that people cite Trump's failures as Trump Steaks, and Trump University.

Why? Both were failures, one of which will likely be proven to be criminal. I guess in the big picture these are both minor, when you consider he has filed for bankruptcy six times.

Meanwhile Hillary has shredded the middle east, and been possibly the worse Secretary of State in modern history. Her "record" isn't exactly a place for her to brag.

Shredded the Middle East? Gotta hear the logic behind this one.

I don't think Clinton was great but there was plenty of support for her when she stepped down from the position, even lauded as one of the best by critics like John McCain. What did she do that was so bad? I mean she was worse than William Jennings Bryan, or John Dulles, or John Sherman? If you don't know your American history going back to the dark ages, then how about more recent candidates like Cyrus Vance, Alexander Haig, Colin Powell and Condeleeza Rice? The later two can really talk to the "shredding of the Middle East" much more than Clinton.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

She's been doing okay but now is getting a bit fired up and is getting into her yelling place again. :/

Her speaking style is still quite poor, though her other presentation is pretty good. Body language and expressions are on point. If we're grading this thing, which let's face it we are.

[ResAlien]

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose

[Drak]

It's not very smooth. It takes some acting ability to pull off a good speech. Her speaking pattern is obviously read. However Obama is hard to match.

[Drak]

Btw I don't have a problem with her yelling. They all yell when fired up. The difference is pitch I guess.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

STOP YELLING AT EVERYONE. Dammit Hillary. How hard is this?

Edit: Everyone raises their voice. She sounds like she's yelling at the audience. There's a big difference between this and what Biden did, for example.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

STOP YELLING AT EVERYONE. Dammit Hillary. How hard is this?

This isn't even close to yelling and is downright library tone compared to almost every single other speech given at both conventions.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I say again: Senator from New York. She had no choice but to vote for it. I don't know why people don't see she was in an impossible situation.

And nobody knew it was a bad idea until well after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20, so it's pretty easy to call her out for her decision while ignoring all of the circumstances at the time.

LOTS of people - myself included - knew that war was a farce before it happened. You forget that millions of people marched in opposition to that war before it occurred. To me, it was patently obvious what Bush and co. were selling from Bush's very first speech about it.

If her excuse for voting for a war that would lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of people is that she had to because it was politically expedient, well, that's a crap excuse.

Originally Posted by Itse

Giving in to emotions and popular expectations happens to pretty much everyone at one point or another. A big black mark for sure, but if you're in politics for any length of time you're pretty much guaranteed to get a few like this one on your track record.

For sure, you can be wrong about lots of stuff, nobody's perfect. She's made mistakes I'm not worried about - the email thing as one example (it ain't great, but it's not unforgivable).

But when the lives of tens of thousands of people hang in the balance, and you make the wrong call and buy and obvious lie, you should be accountable for it. You don't get to wash your hands of it. Not for me anyway.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

This isn't even close to yelling and is downright library tone compared to almost every single other speech given at both conventions.

When people cheers she tends to start it up. When she doesn't think she has to talk over them she's sorta robotic and can't syncopate but is still much better.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

STOP YELLING AT EVERYONE. Dammit Hillary. How hard is this?

WHAT? I'm sorry, I'm having time hearing you over this woman on the TV yelling at the crowd!

[GirlySports]

i dont think she's yelling. good stories so far

[bigtmac19]

Oh give it a rest she's not yelling.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

LOTS of people - myself included - knew that war was a farce before it happened. You forget that millions of people marched in opposition to that war before it occurred. To me, it was patently obvious what Bush and co. were selling from Bush's very first speech about it.

If her excuse for voting for a war that would lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of people is that she had to because it was politically expedient, well, that's a crap excuse.



For sure, you can be wrong about lots of stuff, nobody's perfect. She's made mistakes I'm not worried about - the email thing as one example (it ain't great, but it's not unforgivable).

But when the lives of tens of thousands of people hang in the balance, and you make the wrong call and buy and obvious lie, you should be accountable for it. You don't get to wash your hands of it. Not for me anyway.

What you are saying is with no real information you guessed and were right.

What information could you have read to change your mind to convince you that the war was justified?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

But when the lives of tens of thousands of people hang in the balance, and you make the wrong call and buy and obvious lie, you should be accountable for it. You don't get to wash your hands of it. Not for me anyway.

This I agree with.

But I think there's a difference between being held accountable and being a person you can't support. In fact I think many of the great leaders have made terrible mistakes before reaching greatness.

The example I've used recently was Nelson Mandela being a terrorist before he found better and more effective ways to bring about change.