The Drive for 30th

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by return to the red

This organisation has sought a #1 C for so many years and now the potential is there and many want a D man? I don't get it

1) #1 centers are more rare than top pairing D
2) centers have a more predictable career trajectory

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by moon

They were selected in the last half of the first round in the deepest draft ever. I am sure there are others selected in the last half of the first round but they are fairly rare. Using the 2003 draft can be a bit tricky because it is unlikely that other drafts will ever produce that much talent in the 1st (and 2nd) round again.

Yeah, definitely not normal, but you can still find a lot of great young players to build around. Guys like Keith, Giroux, Benn, Karrlson...all selected out of the Top 10 as well.

Detroit built their Cup champions with terrible draft spots....but they made a lot of them count. Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Filipula, Kronwall etc....none of them were Top 10 (most weren't even first rounders). The last time they picked in the Top 10 was 1991...and yet they managed to be at the top for two decades.

Definitely, a lot easier road to hoe when you have Top 5 picks, but there is a way to get by without it. I suggest the Top 5 route for the Flames though...

[Itse]

Originally Posted by fotze

Something is buggered when this is the only sure way to acquire a franchise player.

As many have said, it's not a sure way. Just the best way. Especially when it comes to centers.

Then again, we didn't draft Kipper or Iginla.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by fotze

Something is buggered when this is the only sure way to acquire a franchise player.

Not to pile on but it's not really a bad thing, you're taking the least risky route to acquiring franchise players. Nothing guaranteed but the strategy is to maximize the odds.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Itse

As many have said, it's not a sure way. Just the best way. Especially when it comes to centers.

Then again, we didn't draft Kipper or Iginla.

On the one hand, the Flames didn't draft Kipper and Iginla.

On the other hand, the Flames drafted their stanley cup team.

Underperforming first round exits or President's trophy competitive teams...

Worshipping at the alter of players with little team accolades or accomplishments, or, worshipping at the alter of Stanley Cup Champs.

It's a tough fork in the road to take.

[bubbsy]

Since the lockout, the flames have been able to improve their wingers, and defenceman through trades and free agency.

Top line centers don't come in thru these means, especially without drastic overpayment (hi brad richards). If you are picking this high with top prospect centers available, you gotta grab one. Drafting your #1 center is the only way to get this piece of the puzzle, so now that we are drafting at a position where some potentially elite Center prospects are actually available, please grab one.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

This thread is disgusting.

If that is how you feel then be quiet and stay out of this thread. Some of us actually care about this team's future.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by fotze

When you have crappy, reactionary management ownership it seems to be the only way.

I don't follow NFL much at all but it seems those teams can turn around their fortunes much quicker than the NHL. Not sure why though.

They're more ruthless, more of a culture in that league to screw anyone that doesn't help you win.

I mean Manning was unceremoniously dumped by the Colts after an injury, would have never happened in the NHL.

Other NHL teams are better and worse at it. San Jose and Philly are good examples of the NFL style asset management. Cut your losses the instant you think they wont help you win the cup.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Since the lockout, the flames have been able to improve their wingers, and defenceman through trades and free agency.

Ok, but imagine for a second that we took Harvey instead of Iginla, do you think a another franchise RW would have fallen onto our laps somehow? I can't imagine what superstar winger would have signed with us during the whole time Iginla was a Flame. We didn't draft him, but that doesn't mean those types of players are easy to get... especially for this team.

As far as I am concerned, over the past 15 years, we have only had one superstar forward, and he was acquired by trade. This doesn't make it sound like the difference between getting a #1 centre is significantly better than a #1 winger for us (maybe it is for other teams). A #1 anything is difficult enough to get that if one is even a fraction better than the other, they shouldn't be turned away when your cupboards are dry.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

This thread is disgusting.

We get it. We really do. Holier than thou. Your bed sheets are still white.

Can you just let the rest of us get on with it? We think the best way to ultimately cheer for wins in the future is to be as bad as we can be this year. Empirical data would tend to bear this out.

Grandstanding isn't going to change the product on the ice and nobody really cares when we come out of this that TurnedTheCorner Never Officially Cheered For Losses.

Whoop-de-frickin-do.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by fotze

When you have crappy, reactionary management ownership it seems to be the only way.

I don't follow NFL much at all but it seems those teams can turn around their fortunes much quicker than the NHL. Not sure why though.

The players NFL teams draft are typically 21. That makes the draft much less of a crapshoot than an 18 year-old draft. It also means players are often ready to step into the roster and play meaningful roles the season after they're drafted. So if you have a weak o-line, you can draft a couple o-linemen with early picks and the next season have a good o-line.

Also, as Tinordi pointed out, NFL teams don't hesitate to move out aging players and replace them with younger and cheaper alternatives. I suppose they're more secure in the loyalty of their fanbases, and don't have to rely on veteran stars to inspire loyalty.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Ok, but imagine for a second that we took Harvey instead of Iginla, do you think a another franchise RW would have fallen onto our laps somehow? I can't imagine what superstar winger would have signed with us during the whole time Iginla was a Flame. We didn't draft him, but that doesn't mean those types of players are easy to get... especially for this team.

As far as I am concerned, over the past 15 years, we have only had one superstar forward, and he was acquired by trade. This doesn't make it sound like the difference between getting a #1 centre is significantly better than a #1 winger for us (maybe it is for other teams). A #1 anything is difficult enough to get that if one is even a fraction better than the other, they shouldn't be turned away when your cupboards are dry.

naturally BPA is a golden rule. My thoughts are that if the potential grade of the 3 main guys mackinnon, jones, drouin (C, D, winger) is relatively similar, then we must take the Center. If the D/winger are clearly higher value prospects then most definitely take the BPA, but if things are relatively even, then take the risk on the center.

This draft, as a guy who is admittedly ignorant of draft prospects, it seems the top 3 are relatively even, and no player is head over heels above the other 2.

As an example, i do think Hall has a bigger game breaker value to him than Seguin. however, as a flames fan, i would have taken seguin over hall regardless, as his value is just higher to the org since he fills a damn near impossible need.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

On the one hand, the Flames didn't draft Kipper and Iginla.

On the other hand, the Flames drafted their stanley cup team.

Underperforming first round exits or President's trophy competitive teams...

Worshipping at the alter of players with little team accolades or accomplishments, or, worshipping at the alter of Stanley Cup Champs.

It's a tough fork in the road to take.

I don't think worshipping is the point.

Also, I think it's worth noting that nobody thought that Iginla or Kipper would become franchise players at the time we got them. Which is understandable, because we never would have gotten them otherwise.

Basicly the bottom line remains similar; In order to get franchise players, you need to roll the dice with unknown players.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The players NFL teams draft are typically 21-22. That makes the draft much less of a crapshoot than an 18 year-old draft. It also means players are often ready to step into the roster and play meaningful roles the season after they're drafted. So if you have a weak o-line, you can draft a couple o-linemen with early picks and the next season have a good o-line.

realize it would never happen, but I wish the NHL delayed player draft ages by a year or 2. There's all this hype over the draft, then you never hear of the player again in the big leagues for 3-4 years down the road.

The NFL draft is so much more fun because those players are slotting right into your team's main roster depth charts.

[endeavor]

I'd like the Flames to draft a player who will have the best impact on the team. Doesn't matter to me if it's Jones or MacKinnon or someone off the board. Hope our scouts do their due diligence.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by return to the red

This organisation has sought a #1 C for so many years and now the potential is there and many want a D man? I don't get it

We need both. And both can be vitally important.

Pronger, Lidstrom, and Niedermayer helped teams win cups. If you can get a true #1 d-man that can be a very big piece.

It would be hard for us to go wrong at the top end. We need Drouin the least but he is a crazy talent.

But yeah if we want a #1 C or #1 D then we have Jones, MacKinnon, Barkov, Lindholm and Monahan as potentials. Very excited about this draft.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

We need both. And both can be vitally important.

Pronger, Lidstrom, and Niedermayer helped teams win cups. If you can get a true #1 d-man that can be a very big piece.

It would be hard for us to go wrong at the top end. We need Drouin the least but he is a crazy talent.

But yeah if we want a #1 C or #1 D then we have Jones, MacKinnon, Barkov, Lindholm and Monahan as potentials. Very excited about this draft.

do u feel that Jones could be that #1 franchise Dman?

[Komskies]

After last night our odds on finishing 30th are up to 13% from 7%.

Go banana!

[moon]

Originally Posted by fotze

When you have crappy, reactionary management ownership it seems to be the only way.

I don't follow NFL much at all but it seems those teams can turn around their fortunes much quicker than the NHL. Not sure why though.

I think easier to plug holes in NFL than NHL.

No crazy to have 3rd and 4th round picks contribute the same year they are drafted.

Lots of FA movement.

Easier to cover holes as well ie great pass rush helps weak secondary, great run game makes up for crap QB. Sure this happens in NHL but not as much.

Main thing though is drafting 21 and 22 year olds. If Flames were doing that this year with their picks they probably add a 1st line Center, 2nd pairing d man and 3rd line defensive specialist center. Makes a huge difference in a quick rebuild.

[moon]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

do u feel that Jones could be that #1 franchise Dman?

I personally don't but from what I remember I am pretty sure FDW is very high on Jones and does think he has that potential.

I think he said best defensive prospect he has seen in 18 years following draft.