U.S. Debt discussion

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I am confused how illegal aliens impacts socialized health care.

I'm not saying this at all in reference to PIMKing, but if you ask most Republican supporters, they are completely against social programs.

Their understanding of it is their tax dollars being used by illegal aliens, lazy drug users, and whores(planned parenthood, and free BC).

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by PIMking

I was just saying that we cant just use the "sweden model" but we need to take bits of it, German, Canadian ect models to mold our own because we have more illegal aliens than they do citizens.

Basically saying that we cant do it that way because we're not sweden

Not to be picky, but Sweden doesn't pay for illegal aliens healthcare either...

I've seen the illegal alien thing used to confuse the issue on several conservative sites, and I think even our dear Sarah Palin referenced it. It's a confusion based on spin.

The real reason government funded healthcare won't work in the US the same way is because of military spending. Healthcare Spending if universally provided is just too expensive. You can't have both without much, much higher taxes IMO.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Do you honestly believe that the Republican party in its current state will support socialized medicare for everyone? Laughable. There is far too much special interest money floating around with the private medical lobby, they wouldn't dare alienate this group.

Everytime you cast a vote for the Republicans, you support their entire platform and everything they stand for. Not just one issue. The other side might not be perfect, but they are a heck of a lot better.

I honestly think that if you broke down the ACA into peices of separate legislation, and took Obama out of the equation, the vast majority of Republicans would support most (80-90%) of those pieces.

It's just the politics of being against whatever Obama supports, in order to hopefully have him fail in the eyes of enough people that the Republicans can get back into the Whitehouse.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Not to be picky, but Sweden doesn't pay for illegal aliens healthcare either...

I've seen the illegal alien thing used to confuse the issue on several conservative sites, and I think even our dear Sarah Palin referenced it. It's a confusion based on spin.

The real reason government funded healthcare won't work in the US the same way is because of military spending. Healthcare Spending if universally provided is just too expensive. You can't have both without much, much higher taxes IMO.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't most nations with socialized medicine spend less per capita than the US on healthcare?

The problem in the US is the insurance industry and profit driven hospitals that drive the cost of care up. If you are paying $20 for a Tylenol and $50 for a pair of latex gloves, of course universal healthcare will be too expensive.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't most nations with socialized medicine spend less per capita than the US on healthcare?

The problem in the US is the insurance industry and profit driven hospitals that drive the cost of care up. If you are paying $20 for a Tylenol and $50 for a pair of latex gloves, of course universal healthcare will be too expensive.

That is correct, but look at the cheapest healthcare cost per capita in a modern nation and it still isn't even remotely feasible. Obamas compromise was to keep that cost outside the government. Even at Finland's costs (which likely aren't realistic due to burden of disease in the USA being higher) it would add $400B at least. Where do those tax dollars come from?

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

That is correct, but look at the cheapest healthcare cost per capita in a modern nation and it still isn't even remotely feasible. Obamas compromise was to keep that cost outside the government. Even at Finland's costs (which likely aren't realistic due to burden of disease in the USA being higher) it would add $400B at least. Where do those tax dollars come from?

To use a Republican argument, you have to cut costs before you can look into more revenue from taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/bu...general&src=me&

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

I work for the post office and we're working today but I'm off. No national wildlife refuges for me today though. National parks are closed.

The po's financial crisis is looming as well. According to our Postmaster General, by next week we will only have a few days' worth of operating cash.

We don't (directly) get any money from the gov't, so the shutdown doesn't affect us. But, we have heard that if Congress doesn't do something about the po soon we may not get paid...eventually.

That whole discussion is such a convoluted bunch of crap that I no longer know who to believe. Supposedly the po is now in a couple billion bucks more debt than they thought .

As for the Obamacare stuff-the lack of knowledge is hilarious. I'm no expert on it, but some of the arguments there are pretty silly.

The hold up in getting things fixed for us is completely a paritsan Congressional issue as well. If these idiots don't do their job and the Post Office shuts down for any length of time, I would imagine the world's second largest group of employees will have a distinct impact on the next elections.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

To use a Republican argument, you have to cut costs before you can look into more revenue from taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/bu...eneral&src=me&

Well, you certainly shouldn't be spending wastefully if you intend to raise taxes.

Do you disagree?

[Street Pharmacist]

Add in the structural damage that privatization would cause to a giant industry employing millions of people that would not necessarily have a job in this new system, and it becomes even more difficult. The time to do this was decades ago. It is just not at all possible without catastrophic changes. It would affect the economy on a massive scale (close to 20%of GDP relies on private healthcare) and jobs on an even more massive scale.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by PIMking

I was just saying that we cant just use the "sweden model" but we need to take bits of it, German, Canadian ect models to mold our own because we have more illegal aliens than they do citizens.

Basically saying that we cant do it that way because we're not sweden

What exactly do illegal aliens have to do with this? As pointed out, illegal aliens would not be able to access the system.

[worth]

The decline of the American Empire. You are witnessing it unfold before you.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by valo403

What exactly do illegal aliens have to do with this? As pointed out, illegal aliens would not be able to access the system.

Oh Jesus Christ, I'm saying That we have more illegal aliens in this country than Sweden has as a population. So what I'm getting at has nothing to do with the fact that we have a legal aliens or with that they are not covered under ACA. I was just bringing up a point that we have more illegal aliens in Sweden has population simple as that don't read too much into it Jesus Christ

[valo403]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Oh Jesus Christ, I'm saying That we have more illegal aliens in this country than Sweden has as a population. So what I'm getting at has nothing to do with the fact that we have a legal aliens or with that they are not covered under ACA. I was just bringing up a point that we have more illegal aliens in Sweden has population simple as that don't read too much into it Jesus Christ

That's great. And what I'm asking is why the hell are you referencing that? Illegal alien populations have literally nothing to do with it, you even say that. You brought it up, if you don't want it questioned maybe don't post it.

Grow up dude. I don't buy your 'it comes across harsh' ploy. This isn't an isolated incident, you're posting like this all over the place.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Well, you certainly shouldn't be spending wastefully if you intend to raise taxes.

Do you disagree?

hmm, how should I answer this? it almost smells like a trick question.

ok, ah, yes, I don't disagree, errr wait, no, I agree. final answer.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by valo403

That's great. And what I'm asking is why the hell are you referencing that? Illegal alien populations have literally nothing to do with it, you even say that. You brought it up, if you don't want it questioned maybe don't post it.

Grow up dude. I don't buy your 'it comes across harsh' ploy. This isn't an isolated incident, you're posting like this all over the place.

Amnesty, and think about that for second

[valo403]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Amnesty, and think about that for second

Think about what? The word amnesty? Do you want to make an argument or is this some sort of dictionary game?

For the record, I know exactly where you're trying to take this, but I want to see you actually present an argument instead of hoping I'll do it for you.

[DuffMan]

they should have just left it alone. It seemed so, awesome.

Medical problems caused 62% of all personal bankruptcies filed in the U.S. in 2007, according to a study by Harvard researchers. And in a finding that surprised even the researchers, 78% of those filers had medical insurance at the start of their illness, including 60.3% who had private coverage, not Medicare or Medicaid.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...064_666715.htm

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

hmm, how should I answer this? it almost smells like a trick question.

ok, ah, yes, I don't disagree, errr wait, no, I agree. final answer.

It's not a trick question at all. It's a question designed to get you to understand the Republican argument you cited.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

It's not a trick question at all. It's a question designed to get you to understand the Republican argument you cited.

ah, ok, thanks for impressing that on me.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

they should have just left it alone. It seemed so, awesome.



http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...064_666715.htm

Good grief. I must have one hell of a health plan. $140K in medical bills in 2012 and I paid $3500 appx. out of pocket.

As I've said before in these discussions in the past. I feel pretty lucky to be where I'm at.

Given that, I should probably get back to work!