My argument is not against the C-Train. It's against the the idea that it's not going to be packed.
I am aguing a practical load vs. a full load. We seem to be approaching the full load, which is the bulk of my grief in the first place.
But none of us will know until it actually opens. So it's all estimations and hypothetical at this point.
You can't use snow days to make that argument credibly. On a snow day, the train will be packed full of people, and it usually takes longer, probably around 5 minutes. On a snowy day, the bus will be packed full of people, and it will take an extra hour to get downtown. They're both packed, but you're way better off with the train.
You can't use snow days to make that argument credibly. On a snow day, the train will be packed full of people, and it usually takes longer, probably around 5 minutes. On a snowy day, the bus will be packed full of people, and it will take an extra hour to get downtown. They're both packed, but you're way better off with the train.
Fine, assuming snow days or not, capacity would sit at 5000-6000, which is still over practical capacity, which is the crux of my argument.
And snow days is when the train make the most sense for transit goers. So why not make mention of it?
My argument is not against the C-Train. It's against the the idea that it's not going to be packed.
I am aguing a practical load vs. a full load. We seem to be approaching the full load, which is the bulk of my grief in the first place.
But none of us will know until it actually opens. So it's all estimations and hypothetical at this point.
Keep in mind that a big reason for some of the crowds we have right now has to deal with reliability issues rather than how they ideally plan it. Even the slightest mechanical error in the early morning hours has the potential to mess up the timing between trains and then perpetuates a cycle that leads to massive overcrowding for the entire duration of the rush hour.
I typically catch the train at Dalhousie between the hours of 7:30-8:00AM. On days that I read on twitter that there's been a minor service glitch that has been 'resolved' even an hour or more prior to me catching the train, it seems to push the 'train every 5 minutes' schedule into a 'train every 8-12 minutes' schedule. This is ultimately the difference between standing comfortably and being able to have enough space to read a book, and standing shoulder to shoulder smelling your adjacent nieghbors 'BO' while having no room left for additional passengers past Brentwood station. Thus far this fall these kinds of days where you're getting to your destination 10-15 minutes later than usual on a Tokyo-style packed train have been occuring at least 1 to 2 times a week. I fully expect that once we get the first serious blast of winter this will be almost an everyday norm, as it was last year.
You can't use snow days to make that argument credibly. On a snow day, the train will be packed full of people, and it usually takes longer, probably around 5 minutes. On a snowy day, the bus will be packed full of people, and it will take an extra hour to get downtown. They're both packed, but you're way better off with the train.
I recall a lot of snow days (or even just random days) where the train suffers major breakdowns and they end up forcing people onto shuttle buses or otherwise have platforms full of people waiting on reduced train frequency. This probably happens as often or more often than there are massive traffic delays.
Keep in mind that a big reason for some of the crowds we have right now has to deal with reliability issues rather than how they ideally plan it. Even the slightest mechanical error in the early morning hours has the potential to mess up the timing between trains and then perpetuates a cycle that leads to massive overcrowding for the entire duration of the rush hour.
I typically catch the train at Dalhousie between the hours of 7:30-8:00AM. On days that I read on twitter that there's been a minor service glitch that has been 'resolved' even an hour or more prior to me catching the train, it seems to push the 'train every 5 minutes' schedule into a 'train every 8-12 minutes' schedule. This is ultimately the difference between standing comfortably and being able to have enough space to read a book, and standing shoulder to shoulder smelling your adjacent nieghbors 'BO' while having no room left for additional passengers past Brentwood station. Thus far this fall these kinds of days where you're getting to your destination 10-15 minutes later than usual on a Tokyo-style packed train have been occuring at least 1 to 2 times a week. I fully expect that once we get the first serious blast of winter this will be almost an everyday norm, as it was last year.
Good point Cowboy.
I also beleive in our numbers crunching, we didn't account for the "Park and Ride" crowd, whether there is an actual Park and Ride or not. People have been using the neighbourhoods / Wal Mart / Safeway parking spaces for a long time now, and I don't anticipate that will change - rather, I think it would increase. The entire 33rd to 37th st. SW area is also getting a massive redevelopment, which will increase the density, and thus, ridership numbers, as those new residential towers get built over the next ten years. Thank goodness for the four car solution, but I can see five cars being needed within 20-30 years.
Also, even in Dalhousie, that's still seven stations out from downtown. Even though ridership may be a smaller number for the West LRT, Westbrook station is going to essentially be the equivalent of Lions Park station, at which point if the train is not full already, it will be near full on those bad days.
Ozy, I get your concern with potential crowding, but come on, even the busses are crammed full with standing room only. I know this is pretty much always the case on the 301/101/104 during rush hours. I can't even count the number of times inbound buses have to skip stops because they're already full by the time they hit Westbrook.
The fact that the West will be served by the same service as the NE line which has 30%+ higher ridership means it will surely be way less crowded than any other line. Im surprised people on the NW or SW legs havn't chimed in to tell you to stuff it, as they often can't even catch trains they're so full. Oh and the SE commuters.....
Its as if you think Calgary Transit didn't do any research or plan this at all. Do you think they have some ulterior motive to cram everyone and provide worse service? These people do it for a living, leave the planning to them. They may not have it perfect on day 1, but they know a heck of a lot more about getting service optimized for the city.
Ozy, I get your concern with potential crowding, but come on, even the busses are crammed full with standing room only. I know this is pretty much always the case on the 301/101/104 during rush hours. I can't even count the number of times inbound buses have to skip stops because they're already full by the time they hit Westbrook.
The fact that the West will be served by the same service as the NE line which has 30%+ higher ridership means it will surely be way less crowded than any other line. Im surprised people on the NW or SW legs havn't chimed in to tell you to stuff it, as they often can't even catch trains they're so full. Oh and the SE commuters.....
Its as if you think Calgary Transit didn't do any research or plan this at all. Do you think they have some ulterior motive to cram everyone and provide worse service? These people do it for a living, leave the planning to them. They may not have it perfect on day 1, but they know a heck of a lot more about getting service optimized for the city.
Ducay, here's my point, one more time:
Crowding is still going to be a factor on the new West LRT, even if the numbers suggest better capacity. With the incoming bus hub crowd, the snow crowd, and all the other factors that affect buses right now, I don't see there being a dramatic improvement in crowding and commute time. In particular, the city is now going to likely be delayed in extending the four-car trains for at least two years, which is a main beef of mine.
I know the city crunched the numbers on a new train - I'm not an idiot. I never said service was going to be worse; I just happen to think it's only going to be marginally better.
Again, it's all conjecture until we see the actual numbers.
And you're right, it's not going to be perfect on Day 1.
Alright, I'll take a different approach with you Muta.
Cool numbers, but did you mean Ozy? LOL.
Tell you what frink, you are an intelligent poster; however, if my commute to work turns out to be just downright more inconvenient when the train opens, I will let you know. Deal? I think that is pretty fair.
Tell you what frink, you are an intelligent poster; however, if my commute to work turns out to be just downright more inconvenient when the train opens, I will let you know. Deal? I think that is pretty fair.
It's hard to argue everyone's commute will be more convenient with the train. As an example, my father commutes downtown on the 104 right now, which stops at the end of his driveway, and drops him right in front of his building downtown. With the train it'll be a bus then a transfer to the train. It's not more convenient for him, but it's more efficient overall.
That being said, the north central, SE and downtown subway would have all been better uses of money. Yes, I know this line was cheaper, but we could have gotten started on one of those other projects, and the long term benefit would have been greater.
12 min to the west end of downtown from when the train leaves seems reasonable. The south leg is 20-25min to the east end of downtown with far more stops.
12 Minute average time? Is this an Airdrie average time or an actual average?
I was able to complete the journey on Monday whilst taking part in the West LRT promotional photo shoot and did notice that it was a quick ride. In addition to being quick, it is the most interesting ride of all the lines.
Spoiler!
All photos are my own.
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“Such suburban models are being rationalized as ‘what people want,’ when in fact they are simply what is most expedient to produce. The truth is that what people want is a decent place to live, not just a suburban version of a decent place to live.”
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Last edited by ken0042; 11-07-2012 at 07:10 PM.
Reason: Added spoiler tags- great pics though!
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I realize that the initial plans have commenced on both the SE and North legs of the train, but does anyone have any idea when actual proposal will be made ( to the province) to start trying to obtain funding? Just wondering when we can expect to hear more chatter regarding the development of the lines ( other than the maps and city planning that has already commenced).
Great improvement for the city!
