[News] Kevin Hayes signs with the Rangers

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Sven has to either be given time and linemates and a legit shot on the Flames this year or he has to be moved. Having him further wallow away into his mid 20's in the AHL is awful asset management. He has a pretty impressive 50 games in the NHL for a guy his age that is comparable to guys like Huberdau and Schiefle, he can't be left in the AHL until he's 24 or he is going to look to get out of here at his first possible chance (and I wouldn't blame him under those circumstances).

Yeah, just look at how the Wings ruined prospects like Nyquist and Tatar by not promoting them to the NHL for good until they were 24 and 23.

[Wastedyouth]

I really wouldn't worry. Burke (and I dont like him) did this with Kadri as well. And it's worked out fine for the leafs and Kadri.

If it's true Sven cant go through waivers, Burke isn't going to throw him away. Even he isn't that stupid.

[codynw]

Kevin Hayes

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Joe Colborne and Sean Monahan are both far worse in the defensive zone than Baertschi.

Calling him a defensive pylon is disingenuous and downright incorrect.

Monahan's lines underlying stats took a horrendous dip the game after Baertschi was press boxed and sent down.

And it's not a coincidence.

Take back the pylon part....but no neither of those guys were "worse" than Sven, totally different scenarios with AHL eligibility and waivers so even if they were worse they couldn't go down as easily.

I really, really like Sven but if you think he was good defensively I don't know what to say. I watched him live many times and he absolutely needed to go down and learn the defensive game.....not even worth arguing over.

[nik-]

Colborne was absolutely worse than Sven while Sven was still up. Colborne was awful most of the year, but scored some shootout goals so people forgot. He was also better after being moved to the wing.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

Take back the pylon part....but no neither of those guys were "worse" than Sven, totally different scenarios with AHL eligibility and waivers so even if they were worse they couldn't go down as easily.

I really, really like Sven but if you think he was good defensively I don't know what to say. I watched him live many times and he absolutely needed to go down and learn the defensive game.....not even worth arguing over.

I guess I question your knowledge of how a winger is supposed to play a two way game in the NHL.

But you have every right to your own opinion. Even ignoring the fact that Sven played a hybrid winger/center for Monahan at the beginning of the season because Monahan was so weak in the D zone.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Joe Colborne and Sean Monahan are both far worse in the defensive zone than Baertschi.

I call b.s. Monahan is a very good young two way centre. Not sure what the hell you were watching.

[Gunkle]

What is the Over/Under on Hayes being a Flame a week today? I say 80% (based upon absolutely nothing).
Get that heatpress ready....the Flames need to make another jersey!

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I call b.s. Monahan is a very good young two way centre. Not sure what the hell you were watching.

Monahan faced some of the easiest minutes on the team. There's no evidence that he's any better a two-way forward, at least right now, than Baertschi.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

This is Sven's third pro season and the last year he can be sent down without going on waivers. He needs to make the team soon or be traded or we could lose him for nothing.

I'm no expert on waiver status, but capgeek's calculator suggests Sven is exempt for 1 more season and/or 92 more games.

http://www.capgeek.com/waiver-calcul...=51&Calculate=

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I call b.s. Monahan is a very good young two way centre. Not sure what the hell you were watching.

I was watching a young center man get his head beat in regularly possession-wise while facing some of the easiest zone starts against the easiest competition of any center on the team while riding an unsustainable shooting percentage.

I like Monahan, but he may be in for a rude awakening next season if he doesn't take a big step forward.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I'm no expert on waiver status, by capgeek's calculator suggests Sven is exempt for 1 more season and/or 92 more games.

http://www.capgeek.com/waiver-calcul...=51&Calculate=

Yeah. I thought the same.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I guess I question your knowledge of how a winger is supposed to play a two way game in the NHL.

But you have every right to your own opinion. Even ignoring the fact that Sven played a hybrid winger/center for Monahan at the beginning of the season because Monahan was so weak in the D zone.

Don't do that, you have your opinion and I have mine...don't have to be a dick about it...and keep your stats in your little notebook, I was at the games watching.

I did not ignore the fact you mention, in fact I thought he did reasonably well in that role until he stopped doing it reasonably well.

I am stopping here...not getting in a pi$$ing contest with you over what my opinion is.
I will end with repeating that I am a Sven fan and I am pulling for him big time.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I was watching a young center man get his head beat in regularly possession-wise while facing some of the easiest zone starts against the easiest competition of any center on the team while riding an unsustainable shooting percentage.

I like Monahan, but he may be in for a rude awakening next season if he doesn't take a big step forward.

But Monahan is a great two-way center, regardless what the statistics say.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

Don't do that, you have your opinion and I have mine...don't have to be a dick about it...and keep your stats in your little notebook, I was at the games watching.

I did not ignore the fact you mention, in fact I thought he did reasonably well in that role until he stopped doing it reasonably well.

I am stopping here...not getting in a pi$$ing contest with you over what my opinion is.
I will end with repeating that I am a Sven fan and I am pulling for him big time.

Agreed. Unnecessary dig.

That being said. I also watch every Flames game as well. But I use stats to supplement my eye. Which, as it is for every human on the planet, coloured by bias that I may not even realize.

There was a Burke driven narrative that Baertschi was struggling defensively, I can't say it's biased you. But to my eye and to the stats, it just isn't true. If anything, Monahan was dragging that line down early in the season in the D zone.

[handgroen]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Wallow away in his mid 20s? He's 21. There is plenty of time for him to develop still.

If he doesn't have a good camp you send him to the AHL and keep developing him. You don't throw away a kid with his talent because he isn't ready to dominate the NHL as a 21 year old.

how apropos coming from wastedyouth

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I'm no expert on waiver status, but capgeek's calculator suggests Sven is exempt for 1 more season and/or 92 more games.

http://www.capgeek.com/waiver-calcul...=51&Calculate=

I guess I should have said this upcoming season. I'm past thinking about last season.

Anyways time is running out for Sven.
As for his defensive game, what I saw of him in Abbotsford, he was pretty good in getting back to help the defence. Where he became ineffective was along the boards where he lost most battles and took a beating. He needs to learn to use his smarts in that situation.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Sven is a great prospect, but he simply isn't ready for the NHL (at least not last season - hopefully he will be this upcoming season, but I don't expect him to be in the lineup regularly until 2015/16).

The only way he was treated unfairly was that Feaster was forcing him to stay on the roster. Feaster gets canned, and Baertschi was sent down. Last thing I think we can all agree on is this team needed a hard kick in the butt to get rid of 'complacency' and 'entitlement' that has plagued this team since Darryl stepped down as head coach.

Sven was not good defensively. He did make some OUTSTANDING defensive plays that showed you how smart he was, but for the most part he simply didn't compete hard enough. He was also way too soft on the puck, and the more he was hit, the worse this got. Physically and mentally, he simply was not ready.

Colborne was physically a much superior player out there (physically!). He won a lot of puck battles and was generally hard to play against. When Colborne didn't impress, he got benched. When Monahan didn't impress, he got his ice-time severely cut. Conversely, when Baertschi had good games, he got increased ice-time and responsibilities (heck, Hartley gave him 20+ minutes in one game - the most out of all forwards IIRC). It wasn't that Hartley had it 'in' for Baertschi. It is that Baertschi simply wasn't ready and didn't bring enough CONSISTENTLY to the Flames.

Granlund came in, and Hartley gave him loads of responsibility. I was shocked, actually, especially with his defensive zone starts.

Every prospect that came in was given fair shots. I have no idea why people think Baertschi got the short end of the stick here. Feaster forced Baertschi on Hartley, and Hartley did the most he could I felt, but Baertschi simply wasn't ready physically or mentally.

Before anyone accuses me of not liking Baertschi as a prospect, I voted him as the #3 best prospect - though I had to think long and hard about it and almost didn't because I am very high on a few other prospects as well, and Granlund DID seem to pass Baertschi last year (Reinhart probably as well).

HOwever, I still think Baertschi has the highest upside out of anyone not named Monahan, Bennett and Gaudreau. Will he translate it? I am optimistic. I do think he just needs more development time.

Do we want to be like the Oilers and throw our prospects up on the team undeservedly? No. Do we want to be like Detroit where they develop in the best developmental league (and arguably, the 2nd best league PERIOD) in the world? Seems like a great place. People have this weird misconception about the AHL as a place that players go to rot away in. It is a developmental league where players get great development and seasoning. Baertschi is a player that just physically is not ready for the NHL (well, he wasn't last year anyways) and time in the AHL will only do him good, not 'stunt his development'. Stunting will happen in the NHL.

Treliving has stated numerous times now that rushing prospects is the worst thing you can do, and he wants the Flames to over-season rather than rush. Sounds logical, and seems to be something that has lots of great examples to prove his theory. What prospect has been ruined by over-development? I can't think of one off the top of my head.

I think Hartley is the perfect coach for a youth movement. Not only did he have a great track record with Hejduk and Tanguay, but even on the Flames he seems to be doing a pretty good job. He is hard when he needs to be, and he is extremely supportive when he needs to be as well. He was the one that took Wotherspoon aside and told him "You can be more than just a defensive-defencemen. I want you to build your offensive game up and I think there is offence there" or something like that.

Heck, we all know him and Blair Jones got into a heated argument, and Jones got demoted right away. Hartley wanted him to be much more physical and hard-working apparently. Anyways, we all thought that it was done for Jones as a Flame. Next season, what happens? Jones gets called up, immediately gets PP time, and the entire PP was run around Jones and his shot (other players were trying to set up Jones for the one-timer).

If Baertschi wants a spot on the team, he will earn it. Simple as that. Nobody is going to hold back Baertschi unfairly, and nobody has until this point.

[MarkGio]

An off season is a long time for these prospects, so I wouldnt write anyone off or penciling anyone in just quite yet.

Sven could be a monster come September, while Raymond or Byron bring little. Who.knows really

[codynw]

Can we change thread title to "Sven Baertschi discussion"?