Israel declares war on Hamas

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If not being careful about avoiding civilians casualties among the enemy you’re at war with = genocide, then the Allies committed genocide against Germany and Japan in WW2.

100% agree. I think that the USA has a horrific historical legacy. Their behavior in Japan and the eventual use of Atomic Weapons was disgusting and a black mark on the American peoples. I would even lump Iraq in as a modern day tragedy. never mind the 1/4 million people they killed, but the archaeological and ecological damage makes all of humanity suffer.

But What do you expect from a nation founded on Slavery and genocide? I look as American military triumphalism with disgust.

It terms of total human suffering I look at Great Brittan in the same light as Nazis.


the fact that Western Europe has a worse historical legacy than Israel does not excuse the last 8 months of violence in Palestine.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Dresden. I mean, among other incidents.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

What I don't get is why are graffiti on synagogues painted as it's the pro Palestinian side as a whole who did that.

Agreed. The antisemitic dirt bags have always been there, they just unfortunately feel more comfortable to publicly share their views now.

I also don't agree with the pro-Palestine message of a lot of the demonstrations. Pro-Peace is the more apt message here.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If not being careful about avoiding civilians casualties among the enemy you’re at war with = genocide, then the Allies committed genocide against Germany and Japan in WW2.

Then they did.

Difference is the world was at threat. Let's be honest, as bad as Oct 7th was and it was horrific, hamas poses 0 threat to take over israel. They do pose a security threat but Israel will never be destroyed because we know America or Israel will nuke any country who is even close to succeeding in that.

The two situations aren't even close to comparable to even pretend they are is just BS.

It's 100% a genocide and will go down in the history books as one (unless the same people who tried to edit the Wikipedia pages about the history of the region get a hold of it.)

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Then they did.

Difference is the world was at threat. Let's be honest, as bad as Oct 7th was and it was horrific, hamas poses 0 threat to take over israel. They do pose a security threat but Israel will never be destroyed because we know America or Israel will nuke any country who is even close to succeeding in that.

The two situations aren't even close to comparable to even pretend they are is just BS.

It's 100% a genocide and will go down in the history books as one (unless the same people who tried to edit the Wikipedia pages about the history of the region get a hold of it.)

I don't think that this is an argument in good faith. I believe that Israel is committing genocide. I also do not think that Israel would have been safe from Hamas committing a similar atrocity if Israel were to have laid down their arms over the last 60 years.

Just to repeat for clarity. What Israel is doing today and over the last 8 months is not justified by the threat that Hamas, and especially an average Palestinian poses to Israel. Still Hamas is a real threat to the life and safety of Jews in Israel.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I don't think that this is an argument in good faith. I believe that Israel is committing genocide. I also do not think that Israel would have been safe from Hamas committing a similar atrocity if Israel were to have laid down their arms over the last 60 years.

Just to repeat for clarity. What Israel is doing today and over the last 8 months is not justified by the threat that Hamas, and especially an average Palestinian poses to Israel. Still Hamas is a real threat to the life and safety of Jews in Israel.

That's exactly what I said.

They pose a threat but not the threat of being taken over by Hamas like the world was on the verge of being taken over by the Nazis like the post I was replying to was suggesting in the comparison they made.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

That's exactly what I said.

They pose a threat but not the threat of being taken over by Hamas like the world was on the verge of being taken over by the Nazis like the post I was replying to was suggesting in the comparison they made.

You said Hamas poses 0 threat. That is not true, an argument in good faith. Hamas poses a very real threat.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

You said Hamas poses 0 threat. That is not true, or an argument in good faith. Hamas poses a very real threat.

To take over Israel.

Not to Israel or the Israeli people.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

To take over Israel.

Not to Israel or the Israeli people.

The 1988 Hamas charter suggests that their fight is against the imperial state, and not with individual Christians or Jews. Though they believe that these can only exist under the wing of Islam. Article 31, 32.

Analysis
The original, 1988 version of the charter emphasize four main themes:[59]

Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;[59]
Unrestrained jihad is necessary to achieve this;[59]
Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable;[59]
Historical anti-semitic tropes that reinforce the goals.[59]
The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children.[59]

The updated 2017 charter appeared to moderate Hamas's position by stating that Hamas is anti-Zionist, but retains the goal of eliminating Israel.[59] Its claim that it is no longer antisemitic has been refuted numerous times due to the actions of Hamas as well as the statements of its leadership including Fathi Hamad who has publicly called for the killing of Jews

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hamas_charter

[Language]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Then they did.

Difference is the world was at threat. Let's be honest, as bad as Oct 7th was and it was horrific, hamas poses 0 threat to take over israel. They do pose a security threat but Israel will never be destroyed because we know America or Israel will nuke any country who is even close to succeeding in that.

The two situations aren't even close to comparable to even pretend they are is just BS.

It's 100% a genocide and will go down in the history books as one (unless the same people who tried to edit the Wikipedia pages about the history of the region get a hold of it.)

You and Bagor can keep yelling genocide until your lips turn blue, but similar to the other previous wars in Gaza, it will be remembered just as such - another war initiated by terrorists, and when Israel responds with decisive force, the world falls for their pity party.

It’s actually quite silly how often this happens in the history of this region. In 1948, after Israel was declared a state, it gets attacked by multiple Arab countries. The resulting war leads to what Palestinians decry as the “nakba” now, as some great tragedy. Well maybe they shouldn’t have started a war to begin with.

But no, it continues again. 1967 six-day war initiated by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. Israel defeats them all and occupies Golan Heights, Sinai Peninsula (subsequently returned to Egypt with peace treaty). To this day, Syria and others are still up in arms about the Golan Heights being occupied by Israel. And again, play stupid games and win stupid prizes. That included loss of territory. Maybe they shouldn’t have attacked. Happens again a short seven years later during the Yom Kippur. Continual acts of aggressions and then crying poor after the fact.

Luckily, Jordan and Egypt smarted up and recognized Israel’s right to exist, and it’s proven that Israel can easily co-exist with Arab neighbors. Likely would have been peace with Lebanon as well if that small country was not overrun as essentially an Iranian proxy now, debilitating that entire country and putting in shambles politically and economically.

Sorry to say, but after so much violence and time that has passed where peace could have been achieved, the vast majority of the problems in the region for Palestinians is self inflicted. It will be a never ending argument going back in time to see whose land this rightfully belongs to. It’s been debated a million times and at this point is highly irrelevant. Israel is the dominant power and is here to stay. The Palestinian people continue to be used as pawns by their various “leaders” who are in it for themselves. They need to realize Israel is not going anywhere, and has no incentive to make grand concessions, and the appetite is gradually decreasing with their population as time goes on. Sometimes, accepting an L is the best path forward, and the Palestinians just cannot accept it. Gaza could have been a small Monaco by now, but instead the billions and billions sent there have been diverted to creating an underground terrorist city, and still the world sucks up their propaganda and self-inflicted suffering.

Not to say Israel is innocent (not by a long shot) but it’s insane how much Israel gets blamed, but there is absolutely no self awareness by Palestinians or others supporting their cause, as to what they could have or should be doing differently.


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[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

That's exactly what I said.

They pose a threat but not the threat of being taken over by Hamas like the world was on the verge of being taken over by the Nazis like the post I was replying to was suggesting in the comparison they made.

The great majority of German civilian deaths in WW2 occurred in the last 9 months of the war, when the outcome was no longer in doubt. The reason the Allies utterly destroyed Germany and its war-making capacity even after it was clear Germany couldn’t win the war, was because they didn’t want to have to come back again in 20 years and do it again (like they did 20 years after WW1 ended in an armistice with most of Germany remaining undamaged and unoccupied).

Israel sees this as that kind of war. They’re not pursuing a proportional tit-for-tat response to a terrorist attack. They’re trying to destroy the war-making capacity of a threat on its borders.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Israel sees this as that kind of war. They’re not pursuing a proportional tit-for-tat response to a terrorist attack. They’re trying to destroy the war-making capacity of a threat on its borders.

That analogy doesn't particularly make sense in this context though. The Germans were making war by building tanks and planes. Hamas and the like don't have manufacturing infrastructure to destroy, and by executing the strategy that Israel has pursued they're arguably creating more weapons, because in Hamas's case the people are themselves the weapons. So unless you accept the premise that the goal is literal genocide - i.e., kill absolutely everyone and start over - the effort is counterproductive.

[FlameOn]

It's being reported that Trump is actively sabotaging the Israel Gaza peace efforts.
"The reporting is that former President Trump is on the phone with the PM of Israel urging him not to cut a deal right now because it’s believed this will help the Harris campaign"

https://www.threads.net/@ronaldfilip...st/C-5hfVMR30P

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

That analogy doesn't particularly make sense in this context though. The Germans were making war by building tanks and planes. Hamas and the like don't have manufacturing infrastructure to destroy, and by executing the strategy that Israel has pursued they're arguably creating more weapons, because in Hamas's case the people are themselves the weapons. So unless you accept the premise that the goal is literal genocide - i.e., kill absolutely everyone and start over - the effort is counterproductive.

They consider the tunnels, the weapons caches, and the Hamas leadership as the war-making capacity of Gaza. The tunnels and bunkers can be rebuilt, but it will take years. More weapons can be smuggled in, but I expect the embargo of Gaza to be much tighter going forward. And while new recruits can fill the ranks of Hamas, it takes a while for leaders to emerge - especially when it’s likely a death sentence.

It’s obviously not a long-term solution to the problem (there probably isn’t one). But if the goal is to suppress the threat from Gaza’s for 6-10 years, it’s not delusional.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

Yep, my extended family being exterminated in the Holocaust and Jewish schools/synagogues being shot at is "all BS".

No. The BS is your willingness to play the Holocaust card and the antisemitic card to justify your defence of the current genocide.

I'll let some survivors respond to you. Basically they find your behaviour insulting.

Below is a letter signed by ten Holocaust survivors condemning the genocide in Gaza and the misuse of antisemitism accusations by politicians.

The co-founder of Human Rights Watch, Aryeh Neier, has recently said that Israel is engaged in genocide in Gaza. He’s also said that using accusations of antisemitism to attack Israel’s critics “debases the whole concept of antisemitism.” As Holocaust survivors, we are writing to agree wholeheartedly with Professor Neier — who himself only survived the Holocaust by escaping Nazi Germany as a child in 1939.

At a recent Holocaust memorial, Netanyahu declared: “We’ll defeat our genocidal enemies. Never again is now!”

Meanwhile, at another memorial, Biden warned of a “ferocious surge of antisemitism” on college campuses.

In our opinion, to use the memory of the Holocaust like this to justify either genocide in Gaza or repression on college campuses is a complete insult to the memory of the Holocaust.

The dehumanization of Palestinians, describing them as “human animals,” the killing of tens of thousands of civilians, indiscriminate bombing, the destruction of universities and hospitals, and the use of mass starvation — these are clearly stages of ethnic cleansing and genocide. They cannot be defended any more than sending weapons to commit this genocide or refusing funding to UNRWA. With no better arguments, our politicians have resorted to misusing the memory of the Holocaust while claiming that protesting against Israeli genocide is somehow antisemitic.

As Holocaust survivors, we have no special authority on the Middle East but we do know about antisemitism. It’s simply wrong to claim that it’s antisemitic to oppose Israeli genocide. It’s also wrong to claim that calling for equal rights for Jews and Arabs “from the river to the sea” is antisemitic.

As Holocaust survivors, we are just a few individuals but we want to add our voices to the growing global movement to demand a permanent ceasefire, an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, and for the West to stop arming and supporting genocide.

Signatories in link.
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/ten-h...gaza-genocide/

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Language

You and Bagor can keep yelling genocide until your lips turn blue, but similar to the other previous wars in Gaza, it will be remembered just as such - another war initiated by terrorists, and when Israel responds with decisive force, the world falls for their pity party.

No. It won't. See above. Holocaust survivors acknowledge it as a genocide.

And It's not similar to the other previous wars in that this is the most recorded genocide in history. History will record it as a genocide but you of course will continue to deny it. For whatever reason only you can answer.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Language

You and Bagor can keep yelling genocide until your lips turn blue, but similar to the other previous wars in Gaza, it will be remembered just as such - another war initiated by terrorists, and when Israel responds with decisive force, the world falls for their pity party.

It’s actually quite silly how often this happens in the history of this region. In 1948, after Israel was declared a state, it gets attacked by multiple Arab countries. The resulting war leads to what Palestinians decry as the “nakba” now, as some great tragedy. Well maybe they shouldn’t have started a war to begin with.

But no, it continues again. 1967 six-day war initiated by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. Israel defeats them all and occupies Golan Heights, Sinai Peninsula (subsequently returned to Egypt with peace treaty). To this day, Syria and others are still up in arms about the Golan Heights being occupied by Israel. And again, play stupid games and win stupid prizes. That included loss of territory. Maybe they shouldn’t have attacked. Happens again a short seven years later during the Yom Kippur. Continual acts of aggressions and then crying poor after the fact.

Luckily, Jordan and Egypt smarted up and recognized Israel’s right to exist, and it’s proven that Israel can easily co-exist with Arab neighbors. Likely would have been peace with Lebanon as well if that small country was not overrun as essentially an Iranian proxy now, debilitating that entire country and putting in shambles politically and economically.

Sorry to say, but after so much violence and time that has passed where peace could have been achieved, the vast majority of the problems in the region for Palestinians is self inflicted. It will be a never ending argument going back in time to see whose land this rightfully belongs to. It’s been debated a million times and at this point is highly irrelevant. Israel is the dominant power and is here to stay. The Palestinian people continue to be used as pawns by their various “leaders” who are in it for themselves. They need to realize Israel is not going anywhere, and has no incentive to make grand concessions, and the appetite is gradually decreasing with their population as time goes on. Sometimes, accepting an L is the best path forward, and the Palestinians just cannot accept it. Gaza could have been a small Monaco by now, but instead the billions and billions sent there have been diverted to creating an underground terrorist city, and still the world sucks up their propaganda and self-inflicted suffering.

Not to say Israel is innocent (not by a long shot) but it’s insane how much Israel gets blamed, but there is absolutely no self awareness by Palestinians or others supporting their cause, as to what they could have or should be doing differently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you are being honest, you might see why a state being "declared" on land you live on might lead to some conflict, no? You are blaming them for not basically folding and accepting what they were dealt, with what seems to be zero awareness of why it would be an issue for all those Arab states. If Muslims decided to all gather in one part of France and declare it a Caliphate, and chase out all the non-Muslim French, that'd be a totally acceptable thing the French should just leave be? Or would you understand how that could be something they'd fight back for?

[Beninho]

Nm

[PepsiFree]

Going a step further than denying genocide by describing what’s happening as simply “not avoiding civilians” or reaching back 50+ years to justify the actions being taken by the Israeli government today seem like really ignorant, contemptuous positions.

Hopefully, showing Holocaust survivors as well as some of the world’s foremost experts on human rights and genocide recognizing this as such give these posters pause and make them rethink their positions.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They consider the tunnels, the weapons caches, and the Hamas leadership as the war-making capacity of Gaza. The tunnels and bunkers can be rebuilt, but it will take years. More weapons can be smuggled in, but I expect the embargo of Gaza to be much tighter going forward. And while new recruits can fill the ranks of Hamas, it takes a while for leaders to emerge - especially when it’s likely a death sentence.

It’s obviously not a long-term solution to the problem (there probably isn’t one). But if the goal is to suppress the threat from Gaza’s for 6-10 years, it’s not delusional.

The math doesn’t work out very well for the price for this 6-10 year buffer.