Russia invades Ukraine

[PeteMoss]

I see Elon decided to weigh into this and its going as well you'd expect.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I see Elon decided to weigh into this and its going as well you'd expect.

And??

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Duruss

How about truculent? Or tenacious or indomitable?

Seasoned

[Fuzz]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1576969255031296000

He really isn't as smart as people think he is, is he?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://twitter.com/user/status/1576969255031296000

He really isn't as smart as people thinks he is, is he?

Can he just shut the phuck up

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by fuzz

https://twitter.com/user/status/1576969255031296000

he really isn't as smart as people thinks he is, is he?

https://twitter.com/user/status/1576989980999970816

[eddly]

In theory Ukraine remaining neutral sounds great... but they can no longer be neutral after being invaded by Russia... they put their trust in Russia that they wouldn't be invaded as part of the agreement for them to give up their nuclear weapons.

Ukraine has to be a NATO country now. That is Russia's F*** up.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by eddly

In theory Ukraine remaining neutral sounds great... but they can no longer be neutral after being invaded by Russia... they put their trust in Russia that they wouldn't be invaded as part of the agreement for them to give up their nuclear weapons.

Ukraine has to be a NATO country now. That is Russia's F*** up.

As much as people don’t like it and are angry (rightfully), if you are asking Ukraine to join NATO as a condition for peace you will never have peace and are in kind asking for nuclear war.

Emotions are high so rationality is losing ground but as dysfunctional as Russia’s armed services are, I don’t think it is a great idea to keep pushing and testing them to consider using nuclear weapons regardless if we agree or disagree with their position.

This notion that Ukraine should join NATO needs to be nipped in the bud and NATO allies need to continue to be consistent in denying its entry (if the intent is de-escalation and avoidance of nuclear war).

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

As much as people don’t like it and are angry (rightfully), if you are asking Ukraine to join NATO as a condition for peace you will never have peace and are in kind asking for nuclear war.

Emotions are high so rationality is losing ground but as dysfunctional as Russia’s armed services are, I don’t think it is a great idea to keep pushing and testing them to consider using nuclear weapons regardless if we agree or disagree with their position.

This notion that Ukraine should join NATO needs to be nipped in the bud and NATO allies need to continue to be consistent in denying its entry (if the intent is de-escalation and avoidance of nuclear war).

I don't know if Ukraine should be in NATO or not - but do you make the same considerations when North Korea buzzes missiles out into the ocean that are capable of hitting US territories? I assume you don't expect the US to go hog wild and nuke North Korea every time they fire at South Korea. Why do you think Russia would risk a nuclear war over Ukraine joining NATO.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

As much as people don’t like it and are angry (rightfully), if you are asking Ukraine to join NATO as a condition for peace you will never have peace and are in kind asking for nuclear war.

Emotions are high so rationality is losing ground but as dysfunctional as Russia’s armed services are, I don’t think it is a great idea to keep pushing and testing them to consider using nuclear weapons regardless if we agree or disagree with their position.

This notion that Ukraine should join NATO needs to be nipped in the bud and NATO allies need to continue to be consistent in denying its entry (if the intent is de-escalation and avoidance of nuclear war).

No, wtf dude, and also, Ukraine already applied for NATO membership three days ago.

The idea that we should allow Russia to bully Ukraine into not protecting themselves against Russia, and bully the west into not protecting Ukraine, was not okay to begin with and completely insane at this point.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I don't know if Ukraine should be in NATO or not - but do you make the same considerations when North Korea buzzes missiles out into the ocean that are capable of hitting US territories? I assume you don't expect the US to go hog wild and nuke North Korea every time they fire at South Korea. Why do you think Russia would risk a nuclear war over Ukraine joining NATO.

Wasn’t the point of the invasion to prevent Ukraine from joining in the first place?

Gambling over nuclear war seems like not a really smart thing to do.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Wasn’t the point of the invasion to prevent Ukraine from joining in the first place?

Gambling over nuclear war seems like not a really smart thing to do.

That was one of Russia stated reasons but there no reason to believe that was true. I don't know why the chances of Ukraine joining NATO were any higher in March then they were last year or the year before that.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Itse

No, wtf dude, and also, Ukraine already applied for NATO membership three days ago.

The idea that we should allow Russia to bully Ukraine into not protecting themselves against Russia, and bully the west into not protecting Ukraine, was not okay to begin with and completely insane at this point.

Understand they applied doesn’t mean they have to be accepted.

It’s pretty straightforward, allowing Ukraine into NATO will escalate the situation and very likely lead to nuclear war. So it’s pretty much a decision for NATO to make, and the question they should ask themselves in allowing Ukraine to join us are they prepared for nuclear war?

What has changed from today from when the invasion started? And if you’re going to allow membership why aren’t all the NATO countries mobilizing for war because that’s exactly what it entails.

Remember an attack on a NATO member nation is an attack on all of them. It guarantees nuclear war in fact as Russia has actually been consistent on that point. So no, precisely the opposite from your point, it would be insane to allow them to join. “Bullying” or not. This has been the logical position from the get go and I do not see what has changed that NATO member nations should change their position on the matter.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

That was one of Russia stated reasons but there no reason to believe that was true. I don't know why the chances of Ukraine joining NATO were any higher in March then they were last year or the year before that.

It’s clear that if Ukraine joins NATO then NATO will enter the war and nukes will be used.

This is pretty basic, straightforward stuff so no, Ukraine should not be allowed to join NATO.

[Mr.Coffee]

Your guys’ position boils down to “we just don’t believe Russia will use nukes” to which I say, is Ukraine worth risking calling their bluff / a global nuclear war?

My personal opinion is no, as horrible as it is to say. And obviously global leaders agree otherwise NATO would have joined this conflict awhile ago.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Itse

No, wtf dude, and also, Ukraine already applied for NATO membership three days ago.

It was basically unsolicited, and has little chance of success in the near term. I mean, we're still talking about a country that has had a civil war and multiple revolutions within the last 20 years and has significant and relatively widespread corruption issues.

They've been dangling NATO membership in front of Ukraine and Georgia for years to help contain Russia's influence, but there has been little indication that the major NATO powers have seriously considered admitting them without major changes happening in those countries.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

It’s clear that if Ukraine joins NATO then NATO will enter the war and nukes will be used.

This is pretty basic, straightforward stuff so no, Ukraine should not be allowed to join NATO.

No one's talking about Ukraine joining NATO mid-war and then invoking Article 5. It would be in the post-war period as a security guarantee for Ukraine to protect whatever its post-war borders end up being.

Still doesn't make it a good idea, but we can at least be clear about what is actually being proposed.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by opendoor

No one's talking about Ukraine joining NATO mid-war and then invoking Article 5. It would be in the post-war period as a security guarantee for Ukraine to protect whatever its post-war borders end up being.

Still doesn't make it a good idea, but we can at least be clear about what is actually being proposed.

Is that what is being proposed? They applied to NATO. Did they conditionally apply based on when this conflict is over? Is that clear? I haven’t seen it but I guess we can take your word for it.

[FlamesAddiction]

OK Elon.

How about we make Crimea and independent Khanate under a Kahzar ruler instead. The Doge of Venice can oversee the transition. Moscow can then be relinquished back to the Mongols. A 200 km buffer around the Volga will be used to promote Viking trade in the region.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Understand they applied doesn’t mean they have to be accepted.

It’s pretty straightforward, allowing Ukraine into NATO will escalate the situation and very likely lead to nuclear war.

No, this makes little sense. Mutual Assured Destruction. If moving countries under the NATO umbrella was a reason for Russia to nuke someone, they would have started that long ago.

Russia is also already fully and openly saying that they're in war against NATO over Ukraine.

I would in fact argue that what IS driving up the risk of nuclear war is allowing the situation to become this prolonged and letting it escalate slowly. The longer nations are at war, the lower their inhibitions are to do everything in their power to win. Carpet bombing, fire bombing and finally nuking cities wasn't how WW2 started, it took a few years to get there.

The smart move would have been to put a quick end to this long ago and call Putin's bluff then. It's still the smart move.

Every day that Putin spends in isolation and desperation fighting an unwinnable war and killing everyone who isn't a total yes man around him is a day that increases the risk of a nuclear war, as him and the people around him really lose their grasp on reality.

That to me is a fairly obvious truth. There likely is no way to slowly inch out of this.