The Last Jedi Spoiler thread

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I find the "mary sue" moniker inappropriate and mildly offensive.

Rey is who she is. The character needs to be powerful in the force for the story to work.

Powerful and competent are two different things. It's one thing to see their "raw power" and another for them to harness that power without any adversity whatsoever.

She can be exceptionally powerful but still have a learning curve (an arc, if you will).

She 'starts powerful, stays powerful, continues to be powerful' is not a compelling storyline.

She is not going to be "trained" by another Jedi.

Except for the times she was. And will learn from the Jedi books as well.

They're purposefully moving away from that circular story. She's out there figuring it out on her own, that's what makes the character interesting. The biggest "moment" in the movies to-date was when the lightsaber flew out of the snow into her hand. That's only accomplished if she takes this arc.

It's a problem for a character when the biggest moment in their story happens near the start of the arc. Rey's character became significantly less interesting in this movie than she was in TFA, and that's because there was nowhere left to go once they took the stance that nothing in her past helped her get here either.

She didn't need help, didn't have help, doesn't have any mysteries in her past...so why should we really care anymore? Why should we get excited she can do something else, rather than see the character overcome something?

Think of Rey as Neo. Did you have a problem with Neo in the Matrix? Just accept that she's the new Anakin or uber-force user just incredibly raw and needing direction.

What Matrix did you watch?

Neo had "Kung Fu" downloaded into his brain along with all the other fighting styles he needed. Fought against Morpheus in training. Had progression in his fights against the agents, etc.

Also, what's this about needing direction?

She is not going to be "trained" by another Jedi...She's out there figuring it out on her own, that's what makes the character interesting.

So which is it. Does she need direction or is she out there figuring it out on her own because that's interesting?

Now, ideally, I'd love to see a Rey heel turn. It will never happen. But I'd love to see her take her walk in the woods of the dark side and really explore that in the next movie.

Nah, she's good. She took a dive to the dark side, didn't like it then went back. Barely even any curiosity about it. Biggest waste of an opportunity yet.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I disagree. From how I see it, Luke left Yoda, faced Vader in Empire, then trained for a year between the 2 movies (not with Yoda) then rescued Han, then returned to Yoda in this scene. If Luke had spent the year training with Yoda would he not asked these questions immediately, rather than a year in? He says "But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training." It only makes sense that this is in reference to the training Luke had in Empire. Otherwise I'd expect a different conversation that tells the audience that Luke has spent most of the past year with Yoda.

Perhaps. The canon doesn't seem to be clear on where Luke was between the 2 movies, but it is clear on the fact it was around a year and his jedi abilities where greatly increased during that time.

Whether he was training alone, with Yoda, or with force Ben isn't the crux of the debate anyway.
The initial post I responded to mentioned he was untaught just like Rey, but his rise did in fact have these gaps in time for him to develop which is the fundamental difference from untrained Rey.

[Fuzz]

Yes, it is easy to get wrapped up in the details when discussing Star Wars

[Locke]

I can already envision Episode 9. A whole bunch of Jedi who disagreed with everyone took their ball and decided to go to some planet in the middle of nowhere in the Outer Rim.

Then all of a sudden after a few centuries and with their stash of Ovaltine and Wagon Wheels finally exhausted they make the perilous trek back to the known Galaxy to re-supply and see the state of affairs in its current order.

"WTF did you guys DO? WTF happened here???"

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Yes, it is easy to get wrapped up in the details when discussing Star Wars

The major problem I have with Rey's force powers is how they just seem to pop up whenever she needs them. Luke spent a long time focusing on specific power, like moving inanimate objects. An emergency happens and Rey all of a sudden can lightsabrr grab, stop a landslide, forcewill a guard, etc... Her powers seem to arise whenever the circumstances require it. Whereas things weren't so for Luke. He took some serious knocks. He watched Obi-Wan die, he gets his hand cut off, etc...Even the trench run from ANH required the guidance of Obi Wan.

It's not just Rey's force powers that are too easy, it's also her interactions with other characters. In one of her first scenes she meets BB8, who is being held captive by some kind of scavenging alien. Rey tells the alien to scram. The creature does, and BB8 fall in love with Rey. Compare this to the interaction Luke had with the sand people and the swarmy R2D2. Rey's character is just far less interesting and more 2 dimensional.

Luke,very early on, needs a pilot for transportation, despite having lots of experience piloting smaller vehicles. They run into Han, who flies the Falcon, a fast yet finicky ship. Rey is capable of flying the Falcon immediately and outmaneuvering trained First Order fighter pilots. Later she knows how to modify and repair the ship...a ship that was held together by sticks and gum by Han, that nobody but Han and Chewie would know the intricacies of.

It's all just lazy writing to create jumping points for action scenes.

[Fuzz]

Can't disagree with any of that.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by blankall

The major problem I have with Rey's force powers is how they just seem to pop up whenever she needs them. Luke spent a long time focusing on specific power, like moving inanimate objects. An emergency happens and Rey all of a sudden can lightsabrr grab, stop a landslide, forcewill a guard, etc... Her powers seem to arise whenever the circumstances require it. Whereas things weren't so for Luke. He took some serious knocks. He watched Obi-Wan die, he gets his hand cut off, etc...Even the trench run from ANH required the guidance of Obi Wan.

It's not just Rey's force powers that are too easy, it's also her interactions with other characters. In one of her first scenes she meets BB8, who is being held captive by some kind of scavenging alien. Rey tells the alien to scram. The creature does, and BB8 fall in love with Rey. Compare this to the interaction Luke had with the sand people and the swarmy R2D2. Rey's character is just far less interesting and more 2 dimensional.

Luke,very early on, needs a pilot for transportation, despite having lots of experience piloting smaller vehicles. They run into Han, who flies the Falcon, a fast yet finicky ship. Rey is capable of flying the Falcon immediately and outmaneuvering trained First Order fighter pilots. Later she knows how to modify and repair the ship...a ship that was held together by sticks and gum by Han, that nobody but Han and Chewie would know the intricacies of.

It's all just lazy writing to create jumping points for action scenes.

Well said, it really does feel like the action drives the story. We want this ship battle through ruins so lets make her fly the Falcon! We want Kylo to show his conflict by not killing his mom, but lets have someone else do it and have her force-fly through space!

The prequels were not overall great movies, mostly because of clunky dialogue writing and some poor actor choices imo, but it was a lot more story driven. There were some gems of both acting and dialogue, Ewan McGregor and Ian McDiarmid really make these movies.

Honestly I wouldn't have been surprised if they had tapped Michael Bay to do Episode 9 at the rate they were going.

I don't want to rip too hard on the new movies because I do think they are well done for current blockbusters, but they lack thought and storytelling. I would have been happier if they released them as a new trilogy than tacking them onto the end of this story.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by blankall

Luke,very early on, needs a pilot for transportation, despite having lots of experience piloting smaller vehicles. They run into Han, who flies the Falcon, a fast yet finicky ship. Rey is capable of flying the Falcon immediately and outmaneuvering trained First Order fighter pilots. Later she knows how to modify and repair the ship...a ship that was held together by sticks and gum by Han, that nobody but Han and Chewie would know the intricacies of.

Well in Luke and Obi Wan's case it wasn't so much they couldn't pilot one, they just didn't have their own ship.

When Han names his price you've got

"We could buy our own ship for that."
"Who's gonna fly it kid, you?"
"You bet I'm not such a bad pilot myself!"

Not to mention Luke shows he can pilot a spacecraft at the end of the movie, and used to "bullseye womprats in my T-16 back home"

And then if you factor in the prequels and Obi Wan could have piloted it as well. But Han had the ship and the ability to transport them and the two droids.


Rey's ability to fix and pilot the ship is believable since that's where she spent all her time and was at the very worst force sensitive, and did mention that she had piloted some ships before (also believable, you'd take the ship for a bit of a test to see if it works, just like a mechanic and a car). Showed similar young abilities as Anakin and Luke. Nothing too crazy about that.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Well in Luke and Obi Wan's case it wasn't so much they couldn't pilot one, they just didn't have their own ship.

When Han names his price you've got

"We could buy our own ship for that."
"Who's gonna fly it kid, you?"
"You bet I'm not such a bad pilot myself!"

Not to mention Luke shows he can pilot a spacecraft at the end of the movie, and used to "bullseye womprats in my T-16 back home"

And then if you factor in the prequels and Obi Wan could have piloted it as well. But Han had the ship and the ability to transport them and the two droids.


Rey's ability to fix and pilot the ship is believable since that's where she spent all her time and was at the very worst force sensitive, and did mention that she had piloted some ships before (also believable, you'd take the ship for a bit of a test to see if it works, just like a mechanic and a car). Showed similar young abilities as Anakin and Luke. Nothing too crazy about that.

Yeah...but they don't pilot the ship. Luke is cocky and states that they could buy a ship for that price, but Obi Wan in no way takes that as a serious option. A far cry from jumping into the falcon and maneuvering it through the hull of a downed Star Destroyer at full speed.

The whole idea with the Falcon was that it was a good ship, but difficult to get the hang of and prone to falling apart. It had been sitting in a junk yard when Rey decides to take it, and presumably decayed more, but Rey is able to hope right in and maneuver it better than anyone else ever did. She also does this without a co-pilot. There's no adversity for the character. She seems to solve all the problems in the Star Wars universe, including repair of the Falcon.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's all just lazy writing to create jumping points for action scenes.

That's pretty much the movies in general at this point, though, isn't it? Anybody who thinks the writers give a #### about canon, backstory, or even coherence don't understand what Disney is doing with this property. The 3 per cent of the movie market who care about that stuff enough to be bothered by it don't matter to them.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Locke

I can already envision Episode 9. A whole bunch of Jedi who disagreed with everyone took their ball and decided to go to some planet in the middle of nowhere in the Outer Rim.

Then all of a sudden after a few centuries and with their stash of Ovaltine and Wagon Wheels finally exhausted they make the perilous trek back to the known Galaxy to re-supply and see the state of affairs in its current order.

"WTF did you guys DO? WTF happened here???"

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corellian_Jedi

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corellian_Jedi

Yeah, I killed pretty much all of those arrogant self righteous jerk faces.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Perhaps. The canon doesn't seem to be clear on where Luke was between the 2 movies, but it is clear on the fact it was around a year and his jedi abilities where greatly increased during that time.

Whether he was training alone, with Yoda, or with force Ben isn't the crux of the debate anyway.
The initial post I responded to mentioned he was untaught just like Rey, but his rise did in fact have these gaps in time for him to develop which is the fundamental difference from untrained Rey.

My initial post was specifically in reference to Rey’s ability to handle Kyle Ren in the first movie in a duel citing that he was severely injured, he didn’t actually want to kill her, she was competent with handheld weapons, and that Kylo’s trainer was never a master with the sword (he just straight up wasn’t) and has no reason to be much of a swordsman himself (which he’s not either really).

It’s not a bad thing. Luke wasn’t trained with a lightsaber from youth and spent no more than a a year or so being trained by people who had ever used one, both past their prime or dead. He can be powerful and not great with a sword. It’s okay.

[saXon]

Originally Posted by blankall

Yeah...but they don't pilot the ship. Luke is cocky and states that they could buy a ship for that price, but Obi Wan in no way takes that as a serious option. A far cry from jumping into the falcon and maneuvering it through the hull of a downed Star Destroyer at full speed.

The whole idea with the Falcon was that it was a good ship, but difficult to get the hang of and prone to falling apart. It had been sitting in a junk yard when Rey decides to take it, and presumably decayed more, but Rey is able to hope right in and maneuver it better than anyone else ever did. She also does this without a co-pilot. There's no adversity for the character. She seems to solve all the problems in the Star Wars universe, including repair of the Falcon.

That was definitely not 12 parsecs.

[Corral]

The Last Jedi left me sad ... but not because of the story ... rather because I realized while watching in the theatre that after 40 years the magic of Star Wars has ended for me. This movie was predictable and tired from the beginning, and the best parts for me were scenes with Luke Skywalker because it reminded me of all the good times the first 3 episodes brought into my life.

I suppose I probably never recovered from the storyline in the Force Awakens that Han and Leia's son would become the next villain. How dumb.

[Itse]

A couple of points on Rey.

First, not all characters need a real character arc. Indiana Jones doesn't have an arc in any of movies really, still a great character. James Bond didn't have an arc for a very long time. Most Batman movies don't have a character arc. If the character is fun and has an actor with sufficient charisma playing it, it's fine. Daisy Ridley has got it what it takes, and thus Rey is just fine.

Second, Rey is a street fighter with a lifetime of experience. This is pretty easily deductible from what we learn about her in TFA. (Grown up alone on a lawless planet, shown beating up two crooks with ease.) Kylo Ren is an impatient manchild born into privilege, with formal training. There's nothing to suggest Kylo has much real life combat experience. I don't care which weapons we're using, if you put an experienced street fighter against a formally trained fighter in an actual life or death battle, I'll absolutely bet on the street fighter.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Itse

A couple of points on Rey.

First, not all characters need a real character arc. Indiana Jones doesn't have an arc in any of movies really, still a great character. James Bond didn't have an arc for a very long time. Most Batman movies don't have a character arc. If the character is fun and has an actor with sufficient charisma playing it, it's fine. Daisy Ridley has got it what it takes, and thus Rey is just fine.

Second, Rey is a street fighter with a lifetime of experience. This is pretty easily deductible from what we learn about her in TFA. (Grown up alone on a lawless planet, shown beating up two crooks with ease.) Kylo Ren is an impatient manchild born into privilege, with formal training. There's nothing to suggest Kylo has much real life combat experience. I don't care which weapons we're using, if you put an experienced street fighter against a formally trained fighter in an actual life or death battle, I'll absolutely bet on the street fighter.

All James Bond films are not created equally.

James Bond is a great example of why characters do need that story arc. The best James Bond films are the ones where he goes through some kind of crisis that he has to overcome. The best Bond potrayals are typically considered to be Sean Connery and Daniel Craig, who portray Bond as almost an anti-hero filled with vices and personal issues.

At the beginning of Goldfinger, a Connery film, Bond is attacked and his girlfriend is murdered. This adds a personal element to his conflict with Goldfinger. Bond is played by Connery, who's version of Bond is far from a boy scout.

At the beginning of Skyfall, a Craig film, bond is shot and left for dead. Bond is presumed dead and has to work his way back into his old position. The movie ends on a very sombre note. Once again, Craig's Bond is far from a purely good character and has many of character flaws.

The worst James Bond portrayals are largely considered to be the Pierce Brosnon and Roger Moore films. In these films like Die Another Day, Moonraker, Octopussy, The World is Not Enough, etc... Bond is a flawless character who's charm, good looks, and strange ability to succeed are always enough to accomplish anything. Bond has no real connection to the other characters and doesn't go on any kind of "hero's journey". These films rely on action sequences and are almost a parody of the good Bond films.

So basically, the depth of the Bond character is a large part of what separates a good Bond film from a bad one. Not all Bond films are good and some are downright awful. Similarly not all Star Wars films are good, and the TLJ is one of the bad ones. It relies on the main character simply "having what it takes".

The fact that Rey has grown up on the streets without any character flaws makes her character even worse and more unbelievable. People who grow up on the streets typically have character flaws fused into them by their harsh environment. Their ability to overcome these issues is part of what makes them compelling. Rey, once again, is simply always good and always succeeds. The film would have been better if Rey was presented as a more well rounded and realistic person.

[CaptainCrunch]

You'd think that basically someone who had been raised by a two ton slime ball on a desert world who's job is to scour for parts for a little food and has abandonment issues, would be someone that would be way more tempted by the dark side of the force.

Imagine having the power to crush your enemies, take their wealth, control their minds and dominate. 9/10 Rey's would dive head long into that power and never come back.



Anakin's fall makes sense from the standpoint that he was always a slave

First on Tattoine
then to the Jedi order and the code

He was lied to, forced to abandon his mother who stayed a slave, Then later constrained by the Jedi and lied to.

then he was enslaved by his love for his wife, and he couldn't bear to see her die.

Of course when Palpatine came to him and whispered. Not only can you save her, unlike your mother. But you won't be constrained by the Jedi and you can become a powerful and wise leader and be free of your slavery. That he fell to the Darkside, all of us would.

When Rey willingly went to the dark well, and then it gave her what she wanted in theory which was answers, it struck me as a really weak attempt at seduction. They could have left the parents thing in the mundane world, but have the mirror show her a vision of the First Order killing her friends, and a vision of Finn lying dead somewhere, or Leia floating in space. "You can have the power to save the ones you love".

Of course the Dark side offers you the power to save people and break your chains of morality and attachment, but in the end, Anakin went from being a slave to the Jedi to a slave of the Dark Side and of Palpatine.

Having Rey actually fighting the temptation of the darkside in a visceral way, or even being tempted after Snoke is dead would have made maybe a better story.

[CroFlames]

So Abrams went through the trouble of resurrecting Alec Guinness' voice for the "Rey" part of her force vision in TFA, and Johnson doesn't even bother with it. Just like he doesn't bother with any type of continuation of the story.

There are so many broken story lines from one movie to the next that it's not a story arc. It's dumb.

It would be like the Fellowship decided the Ring business wasn't that important anymore and just chucked it in the garbage in The Two Towers and decided to attack a Mordor camp instead, then ran out of gas.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Itse

A couple of points on Rey.

First, not all characters need a real character arc. Indiana Jones doesn't have an arc in any of movies really, still a great character. James Bond didn't have an arc for a very long time. Most Batman movies don't have a character arc. If the character is fun and has an actor with sufficient charisma playing it, it's fine. Daisy Ridley has got it what it takes, and thus Rey is just fine.

Second, Rey is a street fighter with a lifetime of experience. This is pretty easily deductible from what we learn about her in TFA. (Grown up alone on a lawless planet, shown beating up two crooks with ease.) Kylo Ren is an impatient manchild born into privilege, with formal training. There's nothing to suggest Kylo has much real life combat experience. I don't care which weapons we're using, if you put an experienced street fighter against a formally trained fighter in an actual life or death battle, I'll absolutely bet on the street fighter.

Indiana Jones was who he was right off the bat, he's not on some journey to find out who he is, gaining abilities along the way. In addition to that we saw scenes of him as an archeology professor. So while there may not have been an arc, there was adequate setup for the basic nature of the character and what he was motivated by, and what he was capable of.

Bond is the same. He may go through an arc in an individual film, but Bond films are separate adventures, and he is already established as a premier spy. We don't disbelieve his capabilities because its established from the beginning this is the world's coolest spy doing his thing. Its understood.


Rey is clearly on some kind of character development journey within a series. She isn't powerful with the force from the beginning of TFA, she is trying to find out who she is. I don't see her in any way comparable to Bond or Jones.

If the new trilogy had set up her character as a bad ass force wielding outcast from the beginning, and let us know these are her adventures, it would be more of a comparison. Instead they set up the hero's journey, fell flat with the development arc, broke a lot of people's understanding of how the universe works, and now people are bending over backwards to justify how hollow it is.