[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Has anyone drafted outside the top ten in 2011 really established themselves yet?

Saad was picked #43, Boone jenner #37,Adam Lowry #67 John gaudreau #104

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Believe it or not, some people do not get satisfaction seeing other people fail.

Routing for failure and routing for success are not the same thing. I said nothing about routing for failure or wanting someone not to succeed. I question the vested interest many average Flames fans are having in seeing him succeed at this point, I did not suggest that we should have a vested interest in his failure.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Newton

Sven was a great Junior player...he is no longer head of the class amongst his peers...

Some guys are late bloomers, he may still be a great NHL player, but the Flames have run out of time with him...

The problem is that "late bloomers" have a strong tendency to come out of nowhere, and to make a sudden surge upwards in their development. This is not the case with Baertschi. He was a mid-first round pick because he looked like he could be an impactful top-six NHL player. His first year following the draft seemed to confirm this. And then, when he turned pro, he has sort of levelled off, and hasn't really taken many noticeable steps forward in his development. If he is plateauing at the age of 23, then I would say that it is highly doubtful he will suddenly turn things around and make a big impact.

[Street Pharmacist]

Rooting. It's Rooting. Sorry, I know it's pedantic, but it is literally the 4th time seeing that tonight.

Routing: defeat and cause to retreat in disorder.

[V H F]

Interesting trade. What will Sven amount to under the Canuck's development, direction and the opportunity that he may or may not be provided. Does he really have NHL caliber talent, effort and impact? Will he earn a spot in the the top 6 in the next 1-3 years? Or will his development stall and wind up as a career AHLer?

Will a second round pick (around 45 - 50th overall in 2015) produce something with better potential? Maybe the Flames will find a diamond in the rough. Many have called this year's draft as deep. For the most part, a deep draft usually means the top 20 or 30 picks are solid, versus the usual top 10, 12, 15 or so. A deep draft at 45 is probably not that different from an average draft at 45. Realistically nobody really knows.

A team with solid scouting picks is successful at picking winners in the the first round. After that, luck begins to play a huge factor. People often say Detroit is great at drafting because so many of their late picks became successful. In reality, a team that wind up with late round drafting success are lucky if their 1st, 2nd and 3rd round draft picks don't pan out. If their "smart" choices were so o good in the later rounds, why didn't they select them earlier?

This is a trade that will need time to evaluate. No clear winner at this time. In fact, the winner is likely to be more "lucky" than "genius". There is no certainty that Sven will succeed as an NHLer, or that the Flames find a "lucky" pick at (approx) 45 that will have greater success and impact in the long run. This is the kind of thing that makes hockey trades so exciting!

Either way, at present, the Flames positionally did not see a future in Sven with a number of prospects that could displace him. Good or bad, he didn't want to be in Calgary. The Canucks saw potential in a young player that may or may not pan out...much like the average 2nd round pick.

The part that draws so much emotion is the fact he was traded to a divisional rival. I hope both teams find success with this trade and continue to build a rivalry.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

RGI = Ricardo's Grit Index or something like that. It's basically bigger = better.

So I picked a bad name for it. Simple version

Hits+Blocked shots+Take aways - Give aways over games played.

If a forward has a index 1.0 or less he is soft, A d-man 1.5

A team can not make the playoffs with more than 4 soft players.

Ie if you want to be competitive you have to cut down the soft players . perhaps sacrificing talent.

Since I published this analysis the Flames management have being doing everything in their power to comply...

Gone Tanguay, Cerveka, Babchuck Cammalleri, derek Smith and now Baertschi. Stempniak was a 1.5

They have been replaced on the soft side by Gaudreau and Mason Raymond (when he is not benched) or Granlund... who was totally soft in his 1st try but has played harder this year.

PS. Vancouve softies: 2 Sedins, Vrbata, Lindsay Vey... so Baertschi will need more than love to make the team on a regular basis.

Because of the Sedins the Canucks have had to get rid of Hodgson and Raymond and Wellwood

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Rooting. It's Rooting. Sorry, I know it's pedantic, but it is literally the 4th time seeing that tonight.

Routing: defeat and cause to retreat in disorder.

Wait, is it routing?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Because of the Sedins the Canucks have had to get rid of Hodgson and Raymond and Wellwood

We got rid of Hodgson for the same reason Sven is now a Canuck. Parental meddling and a player with a bad attitude.

Raymond and Wellwood peaked and never hit that mark again, so we dumped them.

More accurately, if we were to take this measure seriously. Guys like Demitra or Naslund were more casualties of the Sedins.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Wait, is it routing?

No

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Since I published this analysis the Flames management have being doing everything in their power to comply...

[MrMastodonFarm]

How can someone be that delusional.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

So I picked a bad name for it. Simple version

Hits+Blocked shots+Take aways - Give aways over games played.

If a forward has a index 1.0 or less he is soft, A d-man 1.5

A team can not make the playoffs with more than 4 soft players.

Ie if you want to be competitive you have to cut down the soft players . perhaps sacrificing talent.

Since I published this analysis the Flames management have being doing everything in their power to comply...

Gone Tanguay, Cerveka, Babchuck Cammalleri, derek Smith and now Baertschi. Stempniak was a 1.5

They have been replaced on the soft side by Gaudreau and Mason Raymond (when he is not benched) or Granlund... who was totally soft in his 1st try but has played harder this year.

PS. Vancouve softies: 2 Sedins, Vrbata, Lindsay Vey... so Baertschi will need more than love to make the team on a regular basis.

Because of the Sedins the Canucks have had to get rid of Hodgson and Raymond and Wellwood

Thanks, I needed a good laugh. Brad and Brian must have you on speed dial then huh? It's been pointed out time after time but the metrics you use for your index are way to subject and vary wildly from arena to arena. How do you explain that giveaways and takeaways are rarely equal on a game by game basis? Shouldn't every giveaway result in a takeaway? LET. IT. GO.

[Geeoff]

One thing that's been mentioned in this thread that hasn't really been addressed is Baertschi's waiver eligibility. IMO this is not a concern for the Canucks because if Sven doesn't make their roster at draft year + 4, I don't see anyone rushing to grab him off of waivers.

[GettinIggyWithIt]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

One thing that's been mentioned in this thread that hasn't really been addressed is Baertschi's waiver eligibility. IMO this is not a concern for the Canucks because if Sven doesn't make their roster at draft year + 4, I don't see anyone rushing to grab him off of waivers.

I don't know about that. I could see a few teams willing to take a shot at Baertschi if the Canucks try to send him down. More likely though that they pull a Toronto and try to ship him out for a mid round pick if they truly don't have room for him in the line-up next season. I figure they will give him a shot though.

[RT14]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

In this post I was not being condescending. I'm literally struggling to understand how so many average Flames fans have such an attachment at this point to Sven. It's not for me to say whether it's right it's right or wrong, button literally am having trouble seeing what it is. He's been traded now, and I won't look it up, but what played about 50 games as a Flame over 3 years?

You telling me that's a usual occurrence for Flames fans to be attached to that type of player? I'd say it warrants a question because it unusual.

I can't speak for everyone obviously, but I kinda get where that "unusual" attachment comes from. For myself I think it was a lot to do with the fact that Sven, upon being drafted and up to a couple years after, was the first prospect since Phaneuf probably, that had that much potential and hype. I saw what kind of player he could be and had really high hopes for him, and it had been a while since there was hope for this teams future for quite a while prior to him.

I certainly had lost a lot of faith in his potentially high ceiling over the last couple years though, and I do believe a large part of his problem is his pouty responses to being sent down and not getting the quality NHL ice-time he thinks he deserves. If he had just sucked it up and put in all his effort to try and improve and be the best player he could be, I think he could've been great and this whole mess could've been averted.

So given where he put himself in this organization, I'm happy we were able to get a 2nd for him and we can move on.

[buyakasha]

Do you guys think this outcome and trade would have been the same if he hadn't been brought up for that little point streak a couple years ago?

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by buyakasha

Do you guys think this outcome and trade would have been the same if he hadn't been brought up for that little point streak a couple years ago?

Yes I do. I say that mostly because I don't think he's a Burke/Treliving guy. I think the only thing that would have been different is fan perception. So many of us, myself included, fell in love with him and completely overrated him. I fell out of love with him a few years ago but I get why others still clung to the hope that he could be the player we all hoped he'd be. I don't think that stint did anything to alter his development. If anything it should have given him confidence, something he lacks severely.

[Ozy_Flame]

I bet Benning saw how Baertschi couldn't stay on his feet half the time and reasoned that he could be molded nicely into the Canuck's time-aged tradition of diving and embellishment.

[SHOGUN]

I feel bad for the all those people who purchased Baertschi jerseys.

[Caged Great]

The Flames should offer to re-letter any Sven jerseys