[Trade] Oilers trade Smid and Olivier Roy to Flames for Horak and Brossoit

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That all depends on what you consider a prospect. I don't see Ramo, or even Berra as true prospects. They're not young developing goalies who may turn into first-rate NHL starters for the Flames in the long run. They're professional European goalies coming over here for a shot at playing net for a year or two or three while the Flames are rebuilding. Goalies take a while to develop, but guys who are going to be real top goaltenders have usually shown something (more than Ramo or Berra anyway) by the time they're 26. It wouldn't surprise me at all if 20 months from now they're both back in Europe.

So in my mind, that left Ortio, Brossiot, and Gillies as true prospects. In my opinion, Gillies is clearly the best prospect among them, and the best prospects in the Flames organization outside of Monahan. And I don't think Ortio showed any clear separation from Brossoit. So I'd rank our goales prospects before the trade as:

1. Gillies
2A/2B. Ortio/Brossoit

I'm not against dealing Brossoit - goalie prospects were a strength with the Flames organization, and the deal met a need. But I do think there's a better chance right now that Brossoit, in the long run, turns into a better goalie than either Ramo or Berra, and about an equal chance as Ortio.

I never called Berra and Ramo prospects. I listed what I believe is 'the organizational rank of the goalies'. Who cares whether or not they are 'prospects', they are young and are ahead of Brossoit on the depth chart.

You think they could both be gone in less than two years. Maybe, but I doubt it. At least not both of them.

I also think Gillies will turn pro after this season. That too would crowd out Brossoit.

Again, good prospect. But as far as the organizational rank goes, we can replace him simply by drafting another goalie.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I never called Berra and Ramo prospects. I listed what I believe is 'the organizational rank of the goalies'. Who cares whether or not they are 'prospects', they are young and are ahead of Brossoit on the depth chart.

You think they could both be gone in less than two years. Maybe, but I doubt it. At least not both of them.

I also think Gillies will turn pro after this season. That too would crowd out Brossoit.

Again, good prospect. But as far as the organizational rank goes, we can replace him simply by drafting another goalie.

It's times like these that I just love the fact we do prospect rankings. So easy to discredit two players traded to the Oilers, but when you can look back to July and August and see they were ranked 11th and 17th on the prospect list it isn't a stretch to say the Flames dealt two second tier prospects for a top four dman.

I've been away all weekend so I'm sure this has been said ... but I can't for the life of me understand this from an Oilers perspective. They must really really like one of the two Calgary players because their D is thin and Smid was one of the only sure thing defenders they had.

Tanking?

But on the same day they go out and add to goaltending?

So strange.

[Robbob]

The more I look at the trade Brossoit was clearly the target for the Oilers. I find it funny that they would go after the current goalie for the oil kings as he appears to be a better prospect. Just seemed they really over paid for a player becasuse they had no plan B.

The other thing about Brossoit is if he takes 4-5 years before he is ready for the NHL, their locked up long term core will be UFA's in the very near future. At this point it looks like they are crossing their fingers and hoping he is ready in a year or two. It can be dangerous rushing a goalie.

[Righteous1]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I would consider Berra to be a prospect. Wasn't Kipper 26 or 27 when he was traded to Calgary and got his first real shot as an NHL #1?
(Disclaimer: Not saying that Berra is the next Kipper)

Ortio is the next Kipper

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's times like these that I just love the fact we do prospect rankings. So easy to discredit two players traded to the Oilers, but when you can look back to July and August and see they were ranked 11th and 17th on the prospect list it isn't a stretch to say the Flames dealt two second tier prospects for a top four dman.

I've been away all weekend so I'm sure this has been said ... but I can't for the life of me understand this from an Oilers perspective. They must really really like one of the two Calgary players because their D is thin and Smid was one of the only sure thing defenders they had.

Tanking?

But on the same day they go out and add to goaltending?

So strange.

They wanted brossoit badly

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Righteous1

Ortio is the next Kipper

Nope

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Mitch

Nope

Trade for Tanev. He's ALREADY the next Kipper.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's times like these that I just love the fact we do prospect rankings. So easy to discredit two players traded to the Oilers, but when you can look back to July and August and see they were ranked 11th and 17th on the prospect list it isn't a stretch to say the Flames dealt two second tier prospects for a top four dman.

I've been away all weekend so I'm sure this has been said ... but I can't for the life of me understand this from an Oilers perspective. They must really really like one of the two Calgary players because their D is thin and Smid was one of the only sure thing defenders they had.

Tanking?

But on the same day they go out and add to goaltending?

So strange.

Honestly, and as pathetic as it is, they needed the cap space to sign Brzygalov. They may have been able to do some housekeeping to get that tight fit but the team was hovering around 60M in 'hard' cap and an additional 9.1M in bonuses. The bonus cushion only applies for a maximum of 7.5%, or 4.8M, so that other roughly 4.3M of bonuses applies the same as regular cap like that other 60M, bringing them to near exactly the ceiling's 64.3M.

They could have waived Labarbera, and sent some other players down and might have been able to very tightly fit in Brzygalov depending on exactly what he was making. But this was a cap transaction, which I would have to assume was what MacTavish thought was the best way to be able to fit in Bryzgalov.

And when it came to trading Smid, or however else they thought about making cap space through trades, there's actually very little cap space out there today. Only a handful of teams could have taken on Smid's ~2.8M left on his contract today and those teams include Buffalo and Florida, who probably aren't looking to turn their seasons around with a Smid calibre player, and other teams with internal budgets like the Islanders, Senators and Coyotes. It might have only taken the Avalanche to say "thanks but no thanks" because they don't want to ruin their chemistry before Calgary was the only possible destination.

Feaster has talked a lot about using cap space to the team's advantage, the only way to look at this trade is him finally coming through with his promise.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's times like these that I just love the fact we do prospect rankings. So easy to discredit two players traded to the Oilers, but when you can look back to July and August and see they were ranked 11th and 17th on the prospect list it isn't a stretch to say the Flames dealt two second tier prospects for a top four dman.

I've been away all weekend so I'm sure this has been said ... but I can't for the life of me understand this from an Oilers perspective. They must really really like one of the two Calgary players because their D is thin and Smid was one of the only sure thing defenders they had.

Tanking?

But on the same day they go out and add to goaltending?

So strange.

My thought is that sometimes a new boss just wants to make a statement, good, bad or indifferent. I think MacTavish just got impatient and now he's lost a lot of credibility. I thought he was a little smarter than this and his days may be numbered but I thought the same about Feaster.

At this time the Oilers should be in position to take other teams NHL caliber leftovers, as pawning them off to a losing team poses little threat. The Flames were able to take advantage of this with San Jose, St. Louis and Toronto but the Oilers can't because they are in cap hell. MacTavish is in a no win situation that won't change until next season. Even next year all three of their best goalies are UFAs. MacTavish has inherited a mess.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's times like these that I just love the fact we do prospect rankings. So easy to discredit two players traded to the Oilers, but when you can look back to July and August and see they were ranked 11th and 17th on the prospect list it isn't a stretch to say the Flames dealt two second tier prospects for a top four dman.

I've been away all weekend so I'm sure this has been said ... but I can't for the life of me understand this from an Oilers perspective. They must really really like one of the two Calgary players because their D is thin and Smid was one of the only sure thing defenders they had.

Tanking?

But on the same day they go out and add to goaltending?

So strange.

I am a little more forgiving to the Oilers. Personally, I think both prospects are underrated a little. I still think Horak has NHL upside, and Brossoit's trajectory is in the right direction right now.

I think we have the edge value-wise just like most of the people here, but not by the massive landslide that others do and this trade should be revisited in the future by Oiler fans.

I do think this was good asset management though, no matter how it players out in the future. We have depth at the goaltending position, and as others have mentioned, Horak was pushed down the depth chart. We filled a big need by trading assets that really do not impact us. A 27 year old former 1st round pick that is an established NHLer, for prospects drafted in mid to late rounds is beautiful asset management.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I am a little more forgiving to the Oilers. Personally, I think both prospects are underrated a little. I still think Horak has NHL upside, and Brossoit's trajectory is in the right direction right now.

I think we have the edge value-wise just like most of the people here, but not by the massive landslide that others do and this trade should be revisited in the future by Oiler fans.

I do think this was good asset management though, no matter how it players out in the future. We have depth at the goaltending position, and as others have mentioned, Horak was pushed down the depth chart. We filled a big need by trading assets that really do not impact us. A 27 year old former 1st round pick that is an established NHLer, for prospects drafted in mid to late rounds in beautiful asset management.

I also like it from a Horak and Brossoit standpoint - especially Brossoit. I think there were starting to be too much competition for Horak to really break into the NHL (and likely going to be harder with the Flames just starting their rebuild), and for Brossoit you have Gillies that will probably jump him and Ortio who the Flames seemed higher on anyways. That is less time for him being a starter on an AHL team for his development by the looks of it (though things change, and it would be in Brossoit's hands anyways to make sure he pushes himself ahead of the other goalie prospects).

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Honestly, and as pathetic as it is, they needed the cap space to sign Brzygalov. They may have been able to do some housekeeping to get that tight fit but the team was hovering around 60M in 'hard' cap and an additional 9.1M in bonuses. The bonus cushion only applies for a maximum of 7.5%, or 4.8M, so that other roughly 4.3M of bonuses applies the same as regular cap like that other 60M, bringing them to near exactly the ceiling's 64.3M.

They could have waived Labarbera, and sent some other players down and might have been able to very tightly fit in Brzygalov depending on exactly what he was making. But this was a cap transaction, which I would have to assume was what MacTavish thought was the best way to be able to fit in Bryzgalov.

And when it came to trading Smid, or however else they thought about making cap space through trades, there's actually very little cap space out there today. Only a handful of teams could have taken on Smid's ~2.8M left on his contract today and those teams include Buffalo and Florida, who probably aren't looking to turn their seasons around with a Smid calibre player, and other teams with internal budgets like the Islanders, Senators and Coyotes. It might have only taken the Avalanche to say "thanks but no thanks" because they don't want to ruin their chemistry before Calgary was the only possible destination.

Feaster has talked a lot about using cap space to the team's advantage, the only way to look at this trade is him finally coming through with his promise.

Dude, share this with capgeek as their figures are very misleading. Thanks for spelling it out clearly.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Dude, share this with capgeek as their figures are very misleading. Thanks for spelling it out clearly.

Capgeek is well aware of the issue... the first paragraph on their front page is:


All 2013-14 numbers are estimates based on the best transaction information available. Averaged performance bonus amounts are completely rolled back, meaning teams potentially exceeding the bonus cushion (Boston, Edmonton, Colorado, Florida) may have less cap space than indicated. The maximum amount of long-term injury relief is also provided, meaning teams in LTI situations may have slightly less cap space than indicated. The "cap space" column indicates cap space available at season's end if today's roster remains unchanged, while AAV Today and AAV Deadline indicate potential cap space. Roll over the question marks in the table header for more information.



They also put stars and little ? mouseovers that say the cap space is not accurate if the team is over the bonus cushion.

[TurnedTheCorner]

KLown and MacT give out bonus money to the Oilers kids like it's Halloween candy. I love it.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Honestly, and as pathetic as it is, they needed the cap space to sign Brzygalov. They may have been able to do some housekeeping to get that tight fit but the team was hovering around 60M in 'hard' cap and an additional 9.1M in bonuses. The bonus cushion only applies for a maximum of 7.5%, or 4.8M, so that other roughly 4.3M of bonuses applies the same as regular cap like that other 60M, bringing them to near exactly the ceiling's 64.3M.

They could have waived Labarbera, and sent some other players down and might have been able to very tightly fit in Brzygalov depending on exactly what he was making. But this was a cap transaction, which I would have to assume was what MacTavish thought was the best way to be able to fit in Bryzgalov.

Either you or another poster already explained that a part of the bonus money is counted towards the cap, so I'm glad you've stated that again. I was going off that earlier post when I said that the Oilers needed to lose a contract in order to sign Bryzgalov, and that was the main reason for the trade. Moon disputed this, so I'm glad that the facts are now out.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Next bold move: J Schultz signed to $5.75M AAV extension through 20-21.

[PeteMoss]

Nothing against Brossoit... but virtually every organization in hockey has a guy like him. Some mid/late round goalie who performed well in junior. He could pan out.. but the odds are low. If he was the Oilers big target - it says a lot about the Oilers more than anything.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by moon

Except the deal was talked about 3 weeks before the discussions with Brygalov had started and indications from Edmonton media are that MacTavish had talked about moving Smid since the start of the season since he wanted a more mobile, puck moving defense group.

The Bryzgalov aspect and salary cap concerns seem to not have been an issue at all. There are a lot other guys that make sense to move for cap issues that if is their concern.

MacTavish claims to have talked to Bryzgalov many times over the past couple months. So do you have stronger evidence that the actual contract discussions were more recent? Because based on quotes it sounds like they've been talking with Bryzgalov for quite some time.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Honestly, and as pathetic as it is, they needed the cap space to sign Brzygalov. They may have been able to do some housekeeping to get that tight fit but the team was hovering around 60M in 'hard' cap and an additional 9.1M in bonuses. The bonus cushion only applies for a maximum of 7.5%, or 4.8M, so that other roughly 4.3M of bonuses applies the same as regular cap like that other 60M, bringing them to near exactly the ceiling's 64.3M.

They could have waived Labarbera, and sent some other players down and might have been able to very tightly fit in Brzygalov depending on exactly what he was making. But this was a cap transaction, which I would have to assume was what MacTavish thought was the best way to be able to fit in Bryzgalov.

And when it came to trading Smid, or however else they thought about making cap space through trades, there's actually very little cap space out there today. Only a handful of teams could have taken on Smid's ~2.8M left on his contract today and those teams include Buffalo and Florida, who probably aren't looking to turn their seasons around with a Smid calibre player, and other teams with internal budgets like the Islanders, Senators and Coyotes. It might have only taken the Avalanche to say "thanks but no thanks" because they don't want to ruin their chemistry before Calgary was the only possible destination.

Feaster has talked a lot about using cap space to the team's advantage, the only way to look at this trade is him finally coming through with his promise.

What an insightful, well-written post. It's precisely because of posts like this that CP is a great messageboard.

[CaptainCrunch]

The Edmonton Management Group fixing the Oilers is like watching my dad fix a network server with Windows NT. My dad would hammer on the keyboard while yelling, I'm helping I'm helping. But you know that its not going to get fixed.

Mac-T and Kevin Lowe and Dallas Eakins are literally hammering on the Oilers while drunkenly slurring "We're doing something see, we're helping, so love us".

It will be a dark day for Flames fans if the Oilers ever gas the old boys club and bring in someone with half a clue. The Oilers are making the Flames rebuild bearable.