[Trade] Flames acquire Shane O'Brien and David Jones for Tanguay and Sarich

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Red John

Someone is going to have to play for the Flames this year. Seriously doubt Feaster had an option to dump Tangs for a 2nd or something similar, but the team does have to reach the floor and fill out a lineup.

I'm not sure why so many posters feel the only alternative to acquiring a player with three years left on a bad contract is a draft pick. You can try to acquire guys whose contract also sucks but at least it expires in a year or even two.

Originally Posted by Red John

Paying Jones (a needed RW) $4 million sucks but it can't be worse than salary dumping Tanguay and then paying Tyler Bozak north of $5 million on the UFA market.

I would take Bozak at $5M over 3-4 years than Jones at $4M over 3 years.

[Red John]

Originally Posted by FAN

I'm not sure why so many posters feel the only alternative to acquiring a player with three years left on a bad contract is a draft pick. You can try to acquire guys whose contract also sucks but at least it expires in a year or even two.

Ok which teams and which players would you have preferred? Thing is with a NTC for all you know Tanguay only agreed to waive to one or two teams.

Not trying to defend the deal too much or saying it's an amazing deal for the Flames, or that Jones is a star and will score 30.

Just saying when you have an old bit player with an albatross contract and NTC who is going to be particular about where he goes, you don't have 29 teams and 600+ other players to choose from.

It's an alright trade given that the only alternative might have been to hang onto Tanguay. As fans we don't know.

I would take Bozak at $5M over 3-4 years than Jones at $4M over 3 years.

Bozak will probably want 5 or more years too. Most UFAs get term and dollar. If you really think 5/25 for him is better than Jones then ok.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

When was the last time a player that averages 20 goals a season and 60 points was put on waivers?

Tangs is not the only player in the NHL that gets points and only plays when he wants to. There are plenty of them and a lot of them make more than $3.5 million.

There is nothing that you can say that will convince me that Tanguay would not get picked up on waivers. At the same time there is nothing you could say that would make me believe that Jones would get picked up on waivers.

He's been a 60 point player twice in the last 8 years. Who would have picked him up off waivers?

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Red John

Ok which teams and which players would you have preferred? Thing is with a NTC for all you know Tanguay only agreed to waive to one or two teams.

...

Just saying when you have an old bit player with an albatross contract and NTC who is going to be particular about where he goes, you don't have 29 teams and 600+ other players to choose from.

That was my point. I said this deal isn't as bad as some posters think if that was all that was available. I'm not saying you specifically, but there are posters that seem to think that the only alternative to this deal is trading Tanguay for picks and I was just trying to point that out.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

He's been a 60 point player twice in the last 8 years. Who would have picked him up off waivers?

Sorry should have said pro rated he averages around 60 points a season. Last year he had 49 in 64 games. In Montreal he had 41 points in 50 games. Even last year with him moping, he averaged 54 points in a full season. His only bad year point wise was with Tampa.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Icon

I'm not so sure about that. I think expectation levels for the team will have died off enough that there'll be no reason to be pointing any fingers at anyone (except maybe management for not rebuilding sooner). To accuse a guy of underperforming his contract when there's really not a realistic goal to aspire to is like yelling at a rock for not growing when you water it.

That said, there will of course be some who just look at the stats & salary and point fingers I suppose... just won't have as much backing as when it's looking at a team that's underperforming as a whole & looking for reasons.

Come on, you've been around CP logger than that!

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Sorry should have said pro rated he averages around 60 points a season. Last year he had 49 in 64 games. In Montreal he had 41 points in 50 games. Even last year with him moping, he averaged 54 points in a full season. His only bad year point wise was with Tampa.

And yet we signed him for peanuts and extended him for not much more.

One dimensional offensive players don't win you cups. And his offense has had a steady drop for three seasons running.

Contrary to popular belief the Flames management aren't complete morons. Rarely are players traded for well under market value.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Red John

Ok which teams and which players would you have preferred? Thing is with a NTC for all you know Tanguay only agreed to waive to one or two teams.

Not trying to defend the deal too much or saying it's an amazing deal for the Flames, or that Jones is a star and will score 30.

Just saying when you have an old bit player with an albatross contract and NTC who is going to be particular about where he goes, you don't have 29 teams and 600+ other players to choose from.

It's an alright trade given that the only alternative might have been to hang onto Tanguay. As fans we don't know.




Bozak will probably want 5 or more years too. Most UFAs get term and dollar. If you really think 5/25 for him is better than Jones then ok.

For all you know, Tanguay agreed to waive for 20 teams that aren't rebuilding. Pure speculation works both ways.

Calling Tanguay's contract an albatross is an exaggeration. 3.5 million for what he offers is a bargain, term left makes it 'fair'. Compare other players with his output and term in the league.

Tanguay had a bad season last year, especially when Jarome was shipped off. Guess where he ranked amongst all other LW'ers?
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

I would think that he would indeed been claimed off of waivers, or traded for 'future considerations' given his history (even with the sulking - which is why he is making 3.5 and not 5+). 23rd in the league. There are 30 teams in the league. He would have upgraded 7 teams top line as a free acquisition, at a modest 1st-line salary. Think those teams would have claimed him off waivers for free? How about the next tier on the 2nd line? Bound to be a lot of teams there that he would have improved for free. 3.5 is what many 3rd liners make. Tanguay has flaws to his game - and thus he is 3.5 and not 5. He would be claimed for free.

David Jones ranked 82nd amongst RW'ers. 3 goals in 40 games. Though I think this is really a terrible season for Jones, and will probably be an outlier for his career, 4 million is a very expensive contract. But to have term attached to him? To put it in perspective, Brian McGrattan scored the same number of goals last season as Jones did (in about half as many games), and he didn't have someone on the same calibre as Stastny setting him up. (and no, Stastny is not going to Europe. Teams will line up to acquire Stastny).

Is there a reasonable chance that Jones regains his 20+ scoring ability on the Flames playing with less talented centers? Now take into consideration what the Avs' fans are saying about him - that he doesn't play a physical game any longer because when he does, he gets injured, and that he is apparently slower due to a past injury. This will have to wait to be seen, but it seems unlikely at the least. I don't mind taking on a reclamation project - but not one that carries term. Should be a 'prove it' situation for a year.

O'Brien - where do you begin with him? Do people honestly believe he is an upgrade over Sarich? Sarich played the exact number of games as O'Brien - on a team with better defencemen. Take a look at who is ahead of O'Brien. O'Brien is NOT an enforcer (ZERO fighting majors last year - Sarich is 'more' of an enforcer since he had 1). Sarich is apparently also much more physical. Add Sarich's locker room intangibles like his leadership, experience.. add his apparent mentoring of Brodie and Gio. Besides youth (and O'Brien is not a spring chicken) how is this a 'win' for the Flames? Factor in the stigma that O'Brien seems to have from team to team (at least all the ones coming from his time with the Canucks, and most recently on the Avs), where is the upside? Because he is 29 vs Sarich's 34? That alone makes it a win? Definitely in this case, there will be better players available on the FA market who have higher upside, and who at the very least don't have any stigmas. Flames are rebuilding anyways - Sarich would have added leadership at least, even if the Flames couldn't unload him for anything.

I am not upset with what the return was for Tanguay and Sarich. I still think Tanguay could have been traded for 'future considerations' or a complete bust of a prospect playing in Europe that would never come to NA. I look at Sarich as a 'who cares if he is on the team? Adds value to a team lacking leadership now at least'. This trade is not a win in my mind because the Flames acquired a reclamation winger who is over-paid for 3 more years, and a 7th defencemen who brings with him a negative stigma by a number of teams in the past and who also carries term (another 2 years).

Seems we traded away 'negligible value' in return for 'negative value' as it stands right now. Fans here couldn't wait to get rid of Bourque for seemingly the eerily the exact same reasons they wanted Jones out. Only Jones makes 500,000 more, and isn't close to as proven as Bourque was.

Some of the guys are going over the top with how 'bad' this trade was value-wise, but I don't think it is that bad. I just wish the Flames didn't acquire anything in return.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by kehatch

And yet we signed him for peanuts and extended him for not much more.

One dimensional offensive players don't win you cups. And his offense has had a steady drop for three seasons running.

Contrary to popular belief the Flames management aren't complete morons. Rarely are players traded for well under market value.

Maybe you should have followed the whole conversation. By no means was i saying he would get a 2nd round pick, i said that he would get picked up on waivers or get a 6th-7th round pick back.

Even if you don't think Tanguay would get picked up on waivers, i dont see why the flames had to take a worse contract back for him?

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Ezio

Pretty terrible trade for the Flames.

You listen to the Edmonton media too much.

Edmonton wanted Jones when he was set to become a FA a couple seasons ago. Then the Flames get him and he's suddenly garbage. Typical Edmonton media BS.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Maybe you should have followed the whole conversation. By no means was i saying he would get a 2nd round pick, i said that he would get picked up on waivers or get a 6th-7th round pick back.

Even if you don't think Tanguay would get picked up on waivers, i dont see why the flames had to take a worse contract back for him?

Who cares if he would have or would not have been picked up on waivers? That is a hypothetical argument with no point. The Flames didn't trade Tanguay to get rid of him. They didn't agree to take an Albatross contract back because they were desperate. They trade him because they like Jones. You might not. But they do.

The entire clear waivers argument is really silly since neither player would clear waivers. At a minimum Calgary would have picked up Jones and Colorado would have picked up Tanguay. Silly argument.

The real argument is whether Jones is a meaningful player for the Flames. You obviously don't think so as you are arguing that getting nothing would have been preferable to getting Jones. But the Flames don't agree. And neither do I.

My rule of thumb in gauging contract values is:

6-6-6
4-4-4
3-3-3
1-1-1

6-6
4-4
1-1

5
1

Tanguay is a 2-line forward. He is getting paid just under the going rate. Probably fair given how 1-dimensional he is.

Jones is getting paid as a 2-line forward. I think he is a 3-line guy. So he is overpaid. But assuming he returns to 20-goal / 40-point form he is only slightly overpaid. He also has 2-way upside and has decent size.

If you must think of it in those terms then Colorado 'won' the trade I guess. They got the best player (maybe), are taking slightly less risk, and got more value cap wise. But I don't really care who won it.

This is a trade that made sense. Calgary needed a player like Jones. Meanwhile they got rid of a depreciating asset that didn't play like he wanted to be here anymore. They also got bigger and younger.

Colorado got back a guy they drafted and they got the type of player they needed.

So if it works for both sides who really cares who won or who would or would not clear waivers?

What I really like about this trade is that Calgary is potentially buying low. Jones had an off year in a shortened season where his team sucked and he was forced to play over his head. Meanwhile Calgary is selling high on a depreciating asset. If Jones turns it around this is a big win for Calgary.

[kyuss275]

^^^^^^

You might want to look at other posts before stating that i don't like Jones or think the trade was horrible.

Jones has a fit in Calgary and Tanguay did not. That does not excuse that Jones contract is worse than Tanguays. It sets a bad precedent for other players that the flames will have to sign in the future.

[PlayfulGenius]

I like this trade because it balances out the roster a bit making it easier to play some of the young guys in their natural position.

I don't think Jones will rebound, but he can be a warm body on RW for now, no issue there for me.

O'Brien is more of the same, for me. He can watch from the press box and be available to keep the Top 6 D honest...while also making sure any younger D not in he Top 6 can stay in Abby...no sense having a young player watching from up there. CGY has Smith to fill that role as well, though.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

^^^^^^

You might want to look at other posts before stating that i don't like Jones or think the trade was horrible.

Jones has a fit in Calgary and Tanguay did not. That does not excuse that Jones contract is worse than Tanguays. It sets a bad precedent for other players that the flames will have to sign in the future.

So you are saying Jones is a fit, Tanguay was not, but that we still shouldn't have done it? And since when does trading for a contract set the precedence on what you pay UFAs?

Sorry dude. The entire waiver argument is akin to a Spiderman can beat up Superman argument. At best it is over-analysis.

We got what we could for Tanguay and we got a player that fits (as you say). That's a win. On to the next transaction.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

I like this trade because it balances out the roster a bit making it easier to play some of the young guys in their natural position.

I don't think Jones will rebound, but he can be a warm body on RW for now, no issue there for me.

O'Brien is more of the same, for me. He can watch from the press box and be available to keep the Top 6 D honest...while also making sure any younger D not in he Top 6 can stay in Abby...no sense having a young player watching from up there. CGY has Smith to fill that role as well, though.

I think this is a loss for Calgary if Jones doesn't rebound and he and O'Brien spend the season in the press box. Fortunately I would be shocked if Jones doesn't rebound at least to some degree (very unlucky and poorly utilized last season). But I agree that opening up the LW position was a key part of this trade.

With Cammalleri, Tanguay, and Glencross all in the position it is tough to expect Baertschi to earn his ice time. Feaster has said he hasn't got offers for Cammalleri and Glencross isn't going anywhere. Tanguay was the obvious guy to go.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by kehatch

So you are saying Jones is a fit, Tanguay was not, but that we still shouldn't have done it? And since when does trading for a contract set the precedence on what you pay UFAs?

Sorry dude. The entire waiver argument is akin to a Spiderman can beat up Superman argument. At best it is over-analysis.

We got what we could for Tanguay and we got a player that fits (as you say). That's a win. On to the next transaction.

Jones is a fit on the ice because we have no RW prospects, and he will listen to the coach. He is not a fit off the ice due to his contract.

No matter what a teams presence is in the league, if the player is not a core player he should be tradeable in case moves need to be made. Jones contract is not tradeable. If you told me 2 days ago that a team would have picked up that contract i would have said you were nuts. I think the odds of him rebounding back to even a 20-20 player are not good.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Jones is a fit on the ice because we have no RW prospects, and he will listen to the coach. He is not a fit off the ice due to his contract.

No matter what a teams presence is in the league, if the player is not a core player he should be tradeable in case moves need to be made. Jones contract is not tradeable. If you told me 2 days ago that a team would have picked up that contract i would have said you were nuts. I think the odds of him rebounding back to even a 20-20 player are not good.

I still like the looks of the line that has Glencorss-Knight-Jones. Just reeks of goalscoring and Jam.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Jones is a fit on the ice because we have no RW prospects, and he will listen to the coach. He is not a fit off the ice due to his contract.

No matter what a teams presence is in the league, if the player is not a core player he should be tradeable in case moves need to be made. Jones contract is not tradeable. If you told me 2 days ago that a team would have picked up that contract i would have said you were nuts. I think the odds of him rebounding back to even a 20-20 player are not good.

Your being idealistic. Every team has a couple of contracts they don't like. Tanguay was barely tradeable and would have been less tradeable after next season. Either he rebounds and he is very tradeable / not over paid. Or he doesn't in which case we buy him out next summer.

Obviously he needs to rebound for this to be a win for the Flames. But I have yet to see anything legitimate from anyone why he won't rebound. His shooting percentage was less then 5% last season and he was buried in the defensive zone.

Seems silly to right him off based on his circumstances and the shortened season. He produced for the three seasons prior.

Also, make up your mind. One minute you are saying that you don't think the trade is horrible and that I shouldn't put words in your mouth. The next you are suggesting the trade is horrible.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Your being idealistic. Every team has a couple of contracts they don't like. Tanguay was barely tradeable and would have been less tradeable after next season. Either he rebounds and he is very tradeable / not over paid. Or he doesn't in which case we buy him out next summer.

Obviously he needs to rebound for this to be a win for the Flames. But I have yet to see anything legitimate from anyone why he won't rebound. His shooting percentage was less then 5% last season and he was buried in the defensive zone.

Seems silly to right him off based on his circumstances and the shortened season. He produced for the three seasons prior.

Also, make up your mind. One minute you are saying that you don't think the trade is horrible and that I shouldn't put words in your mouth. The next you are suggesting the trade is horrible.

It does not have to be horrible or a win, its not black or white. It seems for you if there is anything negative said about the trade then that person must think its horrible.

As for writing him off, yes he could rebound, but if you have followed the Av's at all you would know that he has lost his speed and some of his jam because of injuries. The year he got his 27 goals, injuries had not hit yet and he was playing on a line with C. Stewart. Stewart at the time was on fire.

I don't think he will be as bad as he was last year, but i see him more as a 15-20 man at best going forward.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I guess only time will show what value Jones and O'Brien add to the organization.

Many posters (like myself) hate the additions themselves rather than the value for Tanguay and Sarich. Some posters hate the value. Some posters love the subtraction of Tanguay. Some posters love the addition of Jones and O'Brien. Guess we could all argue about it until we are blue in the face.

Proof will be in the pudding it seems. We will see how they are performing at the half-way mark next season. Regardless of how any of us feel, we will all be hoping for the best.